Restoring Humanity Through Personalized Learning

Series 5 Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast

[00:00:00.81] NARRATOR: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast with host Peter Dewitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning, not by chance but by design.

[00:00:20.17] PETER DEWITT: Hey, Tanya.

[00:00:21.13] TANYA GHANS: Hey, Peter.

[00:00:22.33] PETER DEWITT: How are you?

[00:00:23.41] TANYA GHANS: I'm good. Excited about episode two.

[00:00:26.13] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, we're moving into season 5. And I'm loving these conversations. I have to admit, I'm really enjoying the conversations, because there's a lot of back and forth with our guests. And I feel like I can ask them some specific questions without-- I know this is going to sound strange. But sometimes I feel like you have to do these softball kind of questions with people, because they might get upset. But the guests this season have no desire for that. They're ready to just dive into it.

[00:01:00.84] And today's guest is no different. So Paul Emerich France is an author of a couple of different books, Reclaiming Personalized Learning and Humanizing Distance Learning, both with Corwin. And he's got a book out with ASCD on sustainable teaching. Paul is a National Board certified teacher. He is also a literacy specialist. He does a lot of keynotes and runs workshops and coaches.

[00:01:23.67] And he's also an LGBTQ+ advocate. And I think it's important to mention that because we talked a little bit about that during the podcast as well. So he was a great guest. And I'm really excited for listeners to hear what he says, because I think we covered a lot of ground.

[00:01:42.42] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, I think this is a really unique episode to our podcast so far. I think he was bringing some new information and shedding some new light. And I thought it was great.

[00:01:53.40] What I really liked about it is, there's so many terms that are going around. And we've talked about this before. We are both seasoned veteran educators, longtime in the business one way or the other. And I get just dizzy sometimes with the what is this versus this versus this. And you know, my inner cynic wants to come out.

[00:02:13.74] So I'm glad that you went at that head on about like, OK, we're talking about personalized learning. What does that really mean? How is it different than some of this other stuff? And I think I really appreciated his balance and nuance and discussing why he feels that personalized learning is really important for the education community. So I know our guest, if they're anything like me, new, they're going to learn something for sure, and maybe be able to wrap their arms around this a little bit tighter.

[00:02:42.81] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, it's just, I need to ask that, because you know, I need that.

[00:02:48.27] TANYA GHANS: Me too.

[00:02:48.72] PETER DEWITT: It's my own understanding, because we often do have those words. And you and I have talked about this a lot. And I just want to know, what does this mean? And if you can talk to me about what it means, then I can ask some better follow-up questions to get deeper. And that's exactly what happened. And he was fantastic.

[00:03:06.18] And I also enjoy the fact that he honors the people that came before him. He talks about Carol Ann Tomlinson and others. And not all authors have a tendency to do that. They want to kind of have that idea as their original idea. And Paul was able to actually bridge together a lot of that, too. So anyway, I am very much looking forward to listeners hearing this interview with Paul Emerich France.

[00:03:34.99] TANYA GHANS: OK. Listeners, enjoy.

[00:03:39.31] PETER DEWITT: Paul Emerich France, thank you for being on the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast.

[00:03:44.14] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: My pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

[00:03:46.54] PETER DEWITT: You know, I follow you on social media. You've got a great Instagram page. You like posting things that inspire and maybe instigate a little bit. So I'd like to get into that. I definitely want to get into that.

[00:03:58.60] I really enjoy when I can meet somebody else that doesn't mind kind of pushing forward a little bit. But you know, you're the author of a few books. But you really focus on personalized learning, and even you've got one humanizing distance learning as well.

[00:04:17.93] How did this start for you? I'd like to just kind of-- how did you get into this in the first place?

[00:04:24.27] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: Yeah, so I started teaching in 2010. And I had a fourth and fifth grade looping class. Still to this day, some of my fondest memories teaching with that group of kids. But during that time, that was when like 1 to 1 devices were really big and kind of coming out. And I had this amazing team I worked with at the time. And one of them had written a grant to actually pilot 1 to 1 devices. And our team was selected to do that.

[00:04:53.08] And so that was when I first became really just fascinated by education technology and what it could do for the classroom. And again, I had a great team at the time. So we were able to sort of experiment together and take risks and make mistakes and let things flop. And there was this psychological safety, the sense of camaraderie that really helped me grow as a teacher at the time.

[00:05:16.62] I ended up leaving that school because, to make a very long story short, I got in trouble for trying to do a lesson on marriage equality. And it was legalized in Illinois at the time. So one of my colleagues and I wanted to do that.

[00:05:30.90] Anyway, so I left that school. And I ended up finding a job in Silicon Valley working for an education technology startup company, a network of micro schools dedicated to personalized learning. So it's a really cool space to be in, because we're building tech tools. I'm working with engineers to build tech tools while I'm teaching in the classroom. So I'm really involved in the iteration on these tools.

[00:05:57.15] So it's really exciting work. But I realized that our approach to personalized learning was all wrong. We were trying to individualize learning, which I've come to understand as very different than personalizing learning. And the individualization of learning oftentimes is not necessary. But it's also unsustainable for teachers and not always best for kids.

[00:06:20.55] And so Reclaiming Personalized Learning, my first book, which is now in its second edition, really tries to unpack that idea of what the difference is between individualization and personalization, when individualization is appropriate, and then how to make personalized learning sustainable and humanizing. So that teachers are getting benefits from it, but obviously so are students, that all their needs are being met in the classroom. That's kind of how I got there with personalized learning.

[00:06:46.59] PETER DEWITT: I feel like I want to go in two directions now, because you have me interested in one side and going in the other. So I'm going to try to tackle both. Very interesting about marriage equality, talking about that, getting in trouble. And you're thinking 2010, 2011, certainly this isn't going to be an issue. And then, now we're in 2023, and that conversation is still banned from schools.

[00:07:09.80] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: Well, it's funny, because at the time, the superintendent and the principal, you know, I give them credit for trying to be empathetic. But they said, Paul, this really isn't personal. And maybe in 5 or 10 years, we'll be able to do this sort of thing. And bear in mind, I'm in Illinois, right? Blue state. We're not having that kind of legislation here. But here we are 10 years later, and it's like, oh, no, it's actually gotten worse, which is really sad.

[00:07:44.21] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. I mean, I did my doctoral research on safeguarding LGBTQ students. I finished in 2010. And I remember when I was writing Dignity For All for Corwin for 2012, I thought, this book is going to be irrelevant in a couple of years. And so when you just said that about marriage equality, it's interesting to think we're in 2023 and even maybe have taken a few steps back in some ways.

[00:08:10.49] But let's move on to the other side. I'm always a big fan of trying to get an understanding of-- because I think in schools we have a common language. But we don't have a common understanding. And I feel like sometimes we drop these words, and people kind of shake their head and say, yeah, I totally know what you're talking about. When in reality, they totally don't know what you're talking about. Even when it's something like growth mindset or student engagement, I think we have different ideas of what that looks like.

[00:08:37.23] So if I was to ask you for a definition of what personalized learning is, because you said it's not this whole individualized, but what is personalized learning, for people that may be a little foggy where that's concerned?

[00:08:54.47] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: Sure, yeah. So I'm going to give a definition that is going to sound at first a little bit vague and broad. But it's kind of by design. So to me, personalized learning, when you look at the base of that word, it's really about the person. So learning that's personal or personalized should be meaningful and relevant to the learner. It should meet their needs.

[00:09:16.82] It's helpful to define it in that way because we can look at it in juxtaposition to individualization, that learning doesn't have to be individualized to me to be personal and meaningful and relevant to me. Instead, it's about how the learning experience is engineered. And so this is where there's an entry point for universal design. Am I able to design a lesson, a task, a learning environment that anticipates the needs of a diverse group of learners, so that they can leverage their agency, make choices in partnership with me as the educator, notice not giving them all the responsibility of voice and choice, but instead partnering with me as the teacher who is knowledgeable on learning to then play a role in getting their needs met in the classroom.

[00:10:12.30] So it really is about that idea of meaningful, relevant, that it reaches the individual child. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the curriculum needs to be individualized.

[00:10:22.80] PETER DEWITT: OK. Because yeah, there's always so much, like when I'm reading research or I'm reading books or seeing things on Twitter. You've got mastery learning. You've got personalized learning. You've got differentiated instruction. And it seems like with personalized learning-- and you can correct me if I'm wrong-- it really honors both the teacher and the student. It honors the teacher as being the professional, but also understanding the content that needs to be taught. but also the student in the way that we know that learning doesn't just happen at school, that students are doing a lot of learning outside of school.

[00:11:01.57] So it's kind of like a marriage between both. Am I right on that? Or am I off?

[00:11:06.18] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: Absolutely. And I think that that marriage also opens up a conversation about sustainability, that teachers matter here too. And that it's actually an unreasonable explanation to give every single child an IEP, for lack of a better term, in the classroom. Because teachers just cannot reasonably do that in the confines of a reasonable workweek. So there definitely is that marriage between the teacher and the learner, for sure.

[00:11:39.57] PETER DEWITT: I like that you just said sustainability, because I know you had recently written a blog about sustainability. And the blog you wrote on sustainability, and what this means when it comes to the whole idea of personalized learning.

[00:11:54.81] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: Well, so what I've come to with the idea of sustainability is that, similar to what you said, we throw around terms a lot. We throw around the term best practice a lot. I think this is best practice because there's a research study on it. And you know, I'm not doubting research.

[00:12:14.82] But we do have to acknowledge that like research has bias. I don't think it's possible to be fully objective on anything. I think it's kind of a continuum. So where I've come to is that, if it's not sustainable practice, it's not best practice. And so that's where it intersects with personalized learning.

[00:12:39.30] I guess in an ideal, or maybe it's not. I don't know. For some people, in an idealized world, every child would have their own curriculum that is catered to them. I don't share that desire, because I think learning is a social act. And I think that we learn in community with one another.

[00:12:56.44] For instance, you and I are having a conversation. And both you and I are going to hopefully walk away with new learnings based on this conversation. That's not something we can do in isolation.

[00:13:08.43] But anyway, that conversation aside, this intersects with the conversation around sustainability. Because if it's not possible for teachers to do this within a reasonable workweek, where they still can go home and have personal lives and take care of their families and do things that bring them joy outside of teaching, then it really isn't a best practice.

[00:13:31.59] Because what's going to happen is, those teachers are going to burn out. They're going to leave the profession. And then we're going to be met with a different problem, which we're seeing right now, which is this idea of churn, where teachers are leaving. We're having to refill those positions. And we can't find sustainability. So that's where the work intersects for me. If it's not sustainable practice, then it's not best practice.

[00:14:00.04] PETER DEWITT: What I think is interesting about what you're saying is that, because you're talking about sustainability, and you actually just mentioned some really important topics, which is the teacher being able to go home and spend time with their families and stuff. What's interesting is that, when people see something like personalized learning, I think they think it's actually more work that they're going to have to do.

[00:14:26.26] And you were actually saying, no, what we want to be able to do is make it sustainable. So I don't want to say it's less work. But it's more defined and focused work. Would that be correct?

[00:14:41.11] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: I think that's right. And I think that whenever you're changing, it's going to feel like a little bit more work at first. And that's something that when I'm having conversations about personalized learning with teachers and I'm and I'm encouraging them to move towards these different, for them, pedagogies, that at first it's going to feel uncomfortable. But as you get used to it, it will feel more sustainable.

[00:15:03.06] So I think a really concrete example, which I talk about in Reclaiming Personalized Learning, and I talk about in the sustainable teaching book, is open ended tasks. Open ended tasks are not my idea. They come from Cohen and Lotan out of Stanford, Complex Instruction. Jo Boaler has recently brought open ended tasks into the mainstream conversation as well.

[00:15:24.49] But what I love about open ended tasks is that if it's well designed, if it's universally designed, they're access points for a diverse group of learners. So I think math is a great context to put this in. But if you have learners that are in a concrete stage where they need manipulatives representational stage where they need to draw pictures, or in a stage where they're more abstract and they can use complex algorithms or more symbols and numbers to represent a situation, all kids can do that within a well designed, open ended task.

[00:15:59.72] And so it goes back to that definition of personalized learning as meaningful and relevant. It's not relevant. Well, it could be relevant through the situation, if that's in the task. But it's relevant in the sense that they have a method or a medium through which they can access that.

[00:16:20.60] So in addition to that, in addition to open ended tasks, then another practice I recommend is journaling. And I love journaling because, one, it's a container for all of the open ended tasks you do in your classroom. But then an element of journaling, at least in my practice, is self-reflection, which we know how important self-reflection is to just making learning stick in the first place. But it's also central to personalizing learning. Because at the end of every lesson, I invite learners to write a reflection that pertains to what they took away from the lesson.

[00:16:56.43] PETER DEWITT: Which is very metacognitive, right? I mean, so it's really important in that way. And we know metacognition has a huge impact on student learning.

[00:17:03.35] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: Right. And my hope would be that that reflection would be in relation to the learning objective that relates to the task they did that day. But you know what, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's a learning habit. And I think that that's just as valuable, and all the more personalized, without having to individualize the curriculum.

[00:17:24.29] So those are just two really concrete practices using open ended tasks and using journaling, where we can still have all learners converging around one thing, which is sustainable. But it's also personalized because it's relevant to the individual.

[00:17:37.94] PETER DEWITT: You had mentioned Jo Boaler. And I do a lot of coaching in California. And I've got some schools I'm working with that are deeply interested in Jo Boaler's work. So would data talks-- I'm sorry if this is a silly question. So would data talks, where you put a piece of data up on the screen and the kids have to talk about it, would that be considered an open ended task? Right?

[00:18:00.11] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: I think it can be. I mean, the beautiful thing, and also the confusing thing, about open ended task is that there kind of is a wide range of them. And I think it depends on what your purpose is for the task. So it really requires the teacher to be clear and mindful. What am I trying to do with this task?

[00:18:24.77] So I think sometimes with emergent learning, or learner-driven practices, it's easy to fall into this lack of structure, or like, the kids are just going to make it that what they will. So we'll just kind of let it be open ended. And that's not really what it-- well, I shouldn't say it's not really what it is. But I think it's most effective when the teacher has an idea of what they're hoping learners construct through the open ended task, so that the teacher can guide them and then also put on sort of blinders, like what things are important to give feedback on, what things are not important to give feedback on today.

[00:19:01.20] So with the data talks, if you're trying to get kids to ask questions and make inferences, then a data talk is great for that. If there is a specific learning objective related to data that you want it to get kids noticing, then I would just refine my questioning so that they're kind of guided towards that learning objective. Does that make sense?

[00:19:22.29] PETER DEWITT: It does. Because actually, what I like about what you're saying, too, is-- because I'm a former first grade teacher. I had 30 first graders. And I always want to do center based learning, and all those kind of things.

[00:19:33.62] And I always felt like, as a teacher-- and I'm a control freak. I know I am. And I'm trying to meditate my way through it. But I know, as a teacher, you have those control issues. I want to control the dialogue, and all that stuff.

[00:19:50.22] And it seems like really what you are asking people to shift to is the idea of questioning. What kind of questions are you asking? Being very clear about your learning intentions. Being very clear about your success criteria.

[00:20:07.14] I develop success criteria with my audiences when I'm running workshops. I'm full in on what you're saying, because I work, in some cases, with a team. And I feel like our hour to two hour meetings are just a great learning experience when I'm walking away.

[00:20:24.10] So it sounds like also with a personalized learning piece, it's to ask people to give up some sort of control over always controlling the dialogue, and turning it into asking better questions. And that takes skills, too. Is that correct?

[00:20:46.23] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: I think so. And I think there's an added element to that. Sometimes I think teachers are afraid-- especially in learner-centered environments-- can be afraid to tell kids they're wrong. And I think sometimes it's OK to say, I don't agree with what you just said. Or I have a different idea. What do you think about my idea?

[00:21:11.06] Because kids do need that redirection. And if we don't find those just right moments to correct them, we might be reinforcing something that we don't want reinforced. So I think there's, again, it's mindfulness. It's like being really intentional.

[00:21:28.34] And I'm saying this, I'm packaging this like this is just so easy to do. And you just learn it through trial and error. I still make these mistakes to this day, where I go, oh, should I have given corrective feedback? Or should I have asked a question? I don't know. But it's about deciding when those just right times are for asking a really good question or saying, no, I don't agree with that. Try this instead.

[00:21:49.61] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. I often find that, when I'm engaged in conversations-- and I just had this conversation yesterday in a remote coaching session. I feel like sometimes we're asking people to do something that they've never done before. Would it be fair to say, in your experience of running workshops and giving keynotes, even your experience of university and then going into teaching, would you say that personalized learning is something that is taught in pre-service teaching programs? Or do you think there's just a void where that is concerned?

[00:22:25.15] And maybe it's unfair to ask you that question. It's based on an opinion. But you have a lot of experience working with different people. Are you asking them to do something that they really have never been asked to do before?

[00:22:35.98] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: Well, this work relates so closely and builds upon Carol Ann Tomlinson's work in differentiated instruction. So I think teachers are taught about differentiated instruction. But I think that sometimes her work gets misinterpreted. And we sometimes see it turning into individualization, or leveled groups where everything is a leveled group. And it's not to say you can't pull skill-based groups. Again, it's mindfulness. It's intentionality.

[00:23:03.33] But if you're only pulling leveled groups in your classroom, then you're actually tracking kids, which is inequitable and potentially harmful. So I think teachers learn about differentiated instruction. I don't think personalized learning comes up frequently enough in pre-service. But what I do, again, it's what we are preaching for our classrooms should be how we facilitate professional learning with teaching.

[00:23:31.68] PETER DEWITT: Absolutely. So I want to say Amen where you just said that.

[00:23:35.70] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: Yeah. So when I'm designing a session, I'm thinking through where are the access points for all different types of teachers? Because the teacher who's never heard of personalized learning or is scared of personalized learning or is scared of learner agency, I want them to know, you are welcome here. I am not going to look down upon you because you haven't considered this or because you're scared, or because you push back on me. I'm always like, please push back because it helps me facilitate better.

[00:24:04.57] But one of the things I like to talk about with personalized learning first is learner agency. Because that is the open-ended provocation for all teachers. How can you incrementally shift your practice towards learner agency? It doesn't mean that you have to adopt open-ended tasks tomorrow or adopt journaling tomorrow. Because I think that those are giving kids a lot of responsibility. And you have to be ready for some of the anxiety of that if you're going to try that.

[00:24:33.81] But there are much more accessible ways to start that work. It could be just simply asking more questions. Almost every teacher can commit to asking a few more questions in the next learning block. You don't have to change your whole lesson plan. Just try asking more questions than you give corrective feedback.

[00:24:56.83] So in reclaiming personalized learning, I have a T-chart that's teacher moves that cultivate learner agency and teacher moves that diminish learner agency. And it is such a powerful provocation for any teacher to go, yeah, I could do a little bit less of that. And I could do a little bit more of that to make learning more personal without redoing my entire curriculum or overturning my entire practice overnight. And so those are the conversations I like to have first and foremost when talking about personalized learning.

[00:25:31.41] PETER DEWITT: So let's do that. You've got the things that maybe we could do a little bit less of. That to me feels like your Instagram. You have a lot of that on Instagram. I'm like, oh, he's tweaking people today.

[00:25:45.27] [LAUGHING]

[00:25:47.53] So talk to me a little bit about your Instagram page. We can talk about books. We can talk about blogs. But I want to ask you about your Instagram.

[00:25:55.92] You post stuff almost every day. And so what are you posting? And what kind of feedback are you getting from people when you post things? Because I can imagine as a blogger, you know, I've been writing for Ed Week for 12 years. You write something, and all of a sudden you get some hate mail from people.

[00:26:15.00] But with Instagram, you're posting these references and things to be able to do within the classroom. But some of them, I have to admit, probably tweak some people. So talk to me a little bit about your Instagram page and what kind of feedback do you get from people.

[00:26:31.95] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: Yeah. I mean, social media has been a journey for me. I'll use, I used to think, now I think as a [INAUDIBLE]. I think what I used to do-- and when I say used to do, I mean like a couple of years ago. Because I sort of took a break from Instagram for a while, because I felt like I needed to reflect on what I was posting up there.

[00:26:54.06] I was doing a lot of what you shouldn't do, and I think sometimes responding to other people's posts in a way that was more aggressive and combative than I should have been. And so now I'm trying to live more in the here's what I think you should do based on my lived experience as a teacher, based on what I've learned in engaging with this work. And I find when I operate from that place, when I get someone who disagrees with me, it bothers me less. Because I feel like what I'm posting now is really rooted in my values as a teacher. And so it ruffles my feathers less.

[00:27:35.23] I mean, some of the things that I've gotten messages about that just kind of hurt are when I post about being a queer teacher. That stuff can really hurt. But in terms of the learner centered practices, I just try to remind myself that when people respond in that way, it's not really about me. It's about the discomfort that comes when you're faced with something where you go, oh, I'm not doing that. And I don't know, I can only imagine that it must be like they must take it personally.

[00:28:12.26] And for me, it's not personal. It is about creating spaces where all learners feel seen and heard and valued. And the reality is that a lot of kids don't feel seen, heard, and valued. A lot of teachers don't feel seen, heard, and valued in their schools. And that's a big problem for me.

[00:28:31.13] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. No, I was just going to say, a long time ago, it's one of my favorite pieces of research, but [INAUDIBLE] from 1972. Students feel alienated for two reasons. They don't feel like they have an emotional connection to their teacher. And they don't feel like they have a voice in their learning.

[00:28:46.23] And I bring that up to principals all the time, because I think teachers feel the same way. I mean, there's research. Ed Week. The Ed Week Research Center did this thing that talked about 86% of principals completely agree they support their teachers when they're trying to be innovative. But then it says 46% of teachers completely agree that their school administrator tries to support them when they're trying to be innovative.

[00:29:09.54] And I think that's also a space where you must spend some time. Because I think there are people that read what you write, both in books or on Instagram or in your blogs, and sometimes they have that knee jerk reaction because they're afraid that they're not going to be supported. They work in a school where they're being paced, and all of that stuff.

[00:29:33.33] So I think that's a part of it too, which is I always think, even with the queer teacher piece that you had said, I often think that when I'm getting pushback on that, it's more about the person writing it than it is ever about me. Maybe I'm older and I've grown a thicker skin, but I read some of those comments and I'm just like, yeah, that's more about you than it is about me.

[00:29:59.70] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: So in that vein, we can all reflect on that, myself included. In reference to what I used to do versus what I do now, I think the way that I used to engage with social media was more about me than it was about what I was seeing.

[00:30:16.85] Whereas now, I feel just more firmly planted in my values to where I don't feel the need to be as aggressive and as combative, because I really do believe, and I've seen the value in asking teachers to do these things. And I've also been in coaching relationships with teachers over the past two years where they're like, you know, I wasn't sure about this at first, Paul. But this is really helping now. So it's like I feel just so validated by that now.

[00:30:46.25] Yeah, I don't know if it's a thicker skin, or if it's just-- you know what it might be? Where did I hear this recently? It's Brene Brown. It's Brene Brown. I watch her specials once a year. But she said something about belonging versus fitting in, and that true belonging is when you can just show up authentically as yourself. And it doesn't matter what is happening around you or what people are saying, because you feel really rooted in your values and that centers you. And that's where I feel right now in my career. And it's a good place to be.

[00:31:26.00] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. And I meet people sometimes that I feel like they instigate for just instigate's sake. And what I like about what you do-- and it's one of the reasons why I wanted to mention your social media page-- is you really have the student experience in mind when you're saying what you're saying. You are really trying to get people to focus on there are other ways that we can actually teach.

[00:31:52.61] And I'm reading a book on mastery learning from Tom [INAUDIBLE]. It's a second edition, or third edition. And in there he said sometimes reteaching is just saying it slower and louder. And what you're really trying to do is get people to break out of, you don't really have to always teach this way. You can actually try these things.

[00:32:12.08] And what I also enjoy about what you said is, you still question yourself. And I do the same thing. When I'm running a workshop, and when I'm walking away, reflecting on, oh, I could have done that better or I could have done that better, I think what people need to know is, even though we write books, or we present, what I think is great about your mindset is that you're going into these situations not seeing yourself as the expert. But you're going in as a learner.

[00:32:37.56] And I think that's a powerful place to be. And the more we talk about that when we're running workshops or we're writing books or we're giving keynotes, the more I hope that it allows teachers to feel that same kind of freedom. You're not just going into your classroom as the teacher. You're going in to learn.

[00:32:59.48] And I say the same thing with principals. I was actually asked years ago-- I got into education a little bit before you, in 1995. And when I was doing my master's degree in Ed Psych, I had a principal, he had been in the district for 50 years. And he said, I think you need to drop out, or you need to change your major to educational leader-- well, at that time it was administration. And I said, there is no way I would ever become a principal. Which I became a principal years later.

[00:33:27.62] But there were these two retired teachers that I used to see at the gym. And I told them what he said. And they actually said something that was so powerful to me. They said, what if you could be the leader you want to be and not the leader you think you have to be?

[00:33:41.12] And I think where there's hope in what you write about and focus on, is that sometimes I think there are people that feel like they have to be this kind of teacher. And what you're saying is you're giving them space to say, you know what, maybe you don't have to be the kind of teacher that way. You can actually be the teacher that you want to be. And you can make that up as you're going along. And this is part of how this could look. And I just think that's a really good beacon of light for people. So I appreciate what you do.

[00:34:13.31] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

[00:34:15.48] PETER DEWITT: Well, Paul, thank you very much for being on the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. Paul Emerich France, author of Reclaiming Personalized Learning, Humanizing Distance Learning, and the name of your book coming out with ASCD is?

[00:34:30.20] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: It's going to be called Make Teaching Sustainable.

[00:34:32.93] PETER DEWITT: Very good. I look forward to reading it. So thank you for being on the podcast.

[00:34:38.22] PAUL EMERICH FRANCE: Thanks so much for having me.

[00:34:39.71] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:34:41.97] TANYA GHANS: That was a really great conversation. I was saying to Paul and both of you, I think that-- it won't make it on the air. So I'll say it here, that that was a very easy, natural conversation. I think both you and Paul forgot you were even taping. You were just talking about such real, good stuff. And it really came through.

[00:35:02.42] So lots of good things said. I'm going to Zoom in on one small detail that I thought was a huge one for me. And to me, it spoke to his credibility and his honesty about the work, and where he is in the work, and how he's learning. He's a continuous learner.

[00:35:23.12] So great things, he talks about learning being a social act. So it's really important that we have kids together, and that we can learn off of that. But then you asked something, and he responded-- because, OK, let me go back just a little. Really talking about how questioning is important.

[00:35:42.53] And you want to look for a time where you can ask questions. And there's a time for critical feedback. It's not always the easiest thing to know when to do what. But what I appreciated is that he respected both of those spaces.

[00:35:56.06] Because what I sometimes fear is, I think a question will come up, like, can you tell a child they're wrong? Or they didn't do it right? And I worry that we are giving teachers and educators the impression that we can't do that, because somehow it will harm children if you tell them, you know, that's wrong. Which is not something I believe.

[00:36:16.65] I believe children, when done correctly, of course, the clarity is very valuable. It's very important they get really clear at times about, OK, that pathway is not going to lead me to success. I need to go this way, even with a simple answer.

[00:36:31.36] So I was kind of holding my breath. And I was like, what's he going to say there? Like, is it OK to do that? And he was like, yeah. And so this was just full of nuance. No clean, simple answers here. Because it's not just work. And I really appreciate his appreciated his willingness to go at the nuance and try, in this short period of time, to give people a rounded out, holistic sense of some of the strategies and the pieces that he's talking about.

[00:36:59.97] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. And that's why I said early on that we covered a lot of ground. Because as soon as I could grasp on to what personalized learning means, and then part of me moves into the space in my head, which is why don't more people do this? Do they not have the knowledge, understanding, and skills? Is it that they haven't been exposed to this in their pre-service teaching? A lot of those kind of things, because when you think about the number of education books that are out in the world and the number of people who are out here doing workshops and coaching, you wonder what is the barrier to doing this work? And I think we were able to talk about that a bit.

[00:37:46.26] And one area that I always like to focus on is to make sure people understand that we get so caught up in the day to day and the busyness that we're always focused on going in and teaching. And that doesn't matter whether you're in a school building or you're running a workshop. I mean, as a principal, I always did that. And as a teacher, I think that I always went in as a learner too. I wanted to learn from the students.

[00:38:14.70] But I think somewhere along the way, I wasn't intentional enough to talk about that. And I think over the past few years when I enter into coaching or enter into a workshop, I make sure people know that I'm there to learn from them as much as they're there to learn from me. Because I think when we can do that, it's very powerful. And that goes back to that whole idea of the social learning theory that he was talking about. Because I'm certainly a big fan of getting into those conversations and engaging in those conversations. And just like this one, I'm going to walk away reflecting on what he's talking about.

[00:38:53.26] And there are so many nuances, too. When he's talking about journaling, I kept thinking about metacognition, which is why I said it. There's just a lot of that kind of stuff. And I think overall, I guess maybe because we've done an interview with Debi Silber as well, for me, it'd be overarching, is the whole idea of hope.

[00:39:14.56] And Paul talks about reclaiming. Debbie talks about reclaiming. It's really about bringing back that hope and giving yourself the freedom to say, you know what, I don't always have to do it this way. I can try it another way. And also talking to principals about that same thing. So yeah, it was a really interesting conversation that I very much enjoyed.

[00:39:35.62] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, and he did have a phrase that I think I want to get on a t-shirt, which was-- let me look for it right here. "If it's not sustainable, it's not a best practice."

[00:39:45.85] PETER DEWITT: Yeah.

[00:39:46.30] TANYA GHANS: And that's true. If people aren't going to do it, and if people can't have a balance of work-life balance, then it's not a project that's not worth doing. So I thought that was great and really spot on.

[00:40:01.26] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, for sure. So thank you, Tanya. Thank you to everybody who listened. And if you really enjoyed this episode, and I'm sure that most of you really did, we would love for you to give us some feedback. Make sure you're following the podcast, make sure you're giving us a rating, all of those kind of things. Because those do matter. We look for those because it helps us understand whether we're doing a good job or not, so providing feedback.

[00:40:30.97] Hit us up on social media. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter. I'm on all of those. But we definitely want to be able to hear from you as well. Because in fact, there are some times that if you're looking to say, hey, why aren't you going to interview so-and-so? You may even be giving us some potential guests that we can interview on the podcast as well. So thank you for listening. And Tanya, it's always good to see you.

[00:40:55.60] TANYA GHANS: Always good to see you. OK, until next time, happy learning, everyone.