The 10th Anniversary of Putting FACES on the Data

Series 4 Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast

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[00:00:00.34] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast with host, Peter DeWitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning not by chance, but by design.

[00:00:19.70] TANYA GHANS: Hey, Peter.

[00:00:20.82] PETER DEWITT: Hey, Tanya. How are you?

[00:00:22.29] TANYA GHANS: I'm good. How are you?

[00:00:24.13] PETER DEWITT: I am doing well. So it's good to see you.

[00:00:27.20] TANYA GHANS: Good to see you too. Excited for this conversation with the one and only Lyn Sharratt.

[00:00:32.68] PETER DEWITT: Yes. Lyn is-- so Lyn is somebody that I actually got to know well over 10 years ago. Man, that makes me feel old. But anyway, that's just a side note.

[00:00:45.22] TANYA GHANS: Experienced.

[00:00:45.67] PETER DEWITT: She-- [LAUGHS] I was writing for Adweek, and I was going to be writing a blog because she wrote a book with Michael Fullan for Corwin called Putting FACES on Data. And I just-- at the time, and I talk about this a little bit with Lyn today, at the time as a school principal we were getting hit with so many accountability measures. And we were data, and data this, and data that that it started to become a very dirty four letter word. And I needed a book like Putting FACES on Data. So when I read it, I just I wanted to write a blog about it.

[00:01:22.40] And that's how I connected with Lyn. And she and I actually trained together for Visible Learning for John Hattie's work. So she's somebody I deeply respect. I love anytime I get to talk with her. And this podcast was no different. So we talked about the 10 year anniversary of Putting FACES on Data. But we also talked about something that she does, which is her CLARITY Learning Suite. So when people are listening they will learn more about the importance of clarity of learning. And I think Lyn articulates that very, very well.

[00:01:55.52] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, Lyn is what I call the real deal. I mean, this is a person who is really-- she rolls up her sleeves. She gets in there, and she really tries to help practitioners get the work done. And what I really liked about especially the opening of this interview is this is a seminal book, but didn't really know the backstory to it.

[00:02:14.31] So hearing Lyn talk a little bit about where the genesis of this idea and how she's in the middle, like you said, of people really getting stressed out about data and accountability, and probably just lots of fear circulating in the room, and how she was able to kind of cut through that and really figure out what was missing and what was needed so that people could move on and do the really important work. So I thought that was really interesting to learn. So I think this is going to be as always a really great listen for people. And this is the book if you're not sure which five books to have if you're a new reader. [LAUGHS] You know, FACES is one of those books you want to have on your shelf.

[00:02:55.76] PETER DEWITT: For sure. So I hope everybody enjoys the interview.

[00:02:58.58] TANYA GHANS: OK, enjoy.

[00:02:59.87] [UPBEAT SOUND]

[00:03:02.92] PETER DEWITT: Lyn Sharratt, welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. It is so nice to see you.

[00:03:09.54] LYN SHARRATT: So good to see you, Peter. Even though we're far away we're really quite close. How good is that?

[00:03:14.92] PETER DEWITT: I know, exactly. You're in Australia right now. I'm in the United States. But you know that I've always held you in such high esteem. I remember well over 10 years ago I wrote a blog for Education Week on Putting FACES on the Data. And so I definitely want to talk about that because I know you're experiencing the 10th anniversary.

[00:03:37.36] And then of course we've gone through Visible Learning together, and all of that kind of stuff. So it's just-- you're somebody that I deeply respect. So it's really nice to have this opportunity to actually sit down and talk to you about all of the work that you do. And you're just doing so much great impactful work.

[00:03:56.92] LYN SHARRATT: Thanks, Peter. I remember that podcast. I think I have what you said framed. You were--

[00:04:04.10] PETER DEWITT: [LAUGHS]

[00:04:04.25] LYN SHARRATT: --looking at-- yeah, do you remember that? Was it looking at impactful women or something?

[00:04:11.87] PETER DEWITT: Oh, yes. Oh, my gosh--

[00:04:13.43] LYN SHARRATT: That's what I heard.

[00:04:13.76] PETER DEWITT: --that's right. I did. I listed you. You were one of the 18 most impactful women in education. And yes, I wrote about that. And I still-- you've proven me right. Let's just put it that way. You've actually--

[00:04:29.45] LYN SHARRATT: [LAUGHS]

[00:04:29.81] PETER DEWITT: --proven right because like I said back then and that was years ago.

[00:04:35.09] LYN SHARRATT: Yes.

[00:04:35.51] PETER DEWITT: You just had such an impact on what I do in my role both from a professional learning standpoint, and also the whole idea of writing books. I've learned so much from reading what you write. And I'd like to actually get there. Let's talk about Putting FACES on the Data. It's the 10th anniversary.

[00:04:55.82] Back then, back then 10 years ago, I remember just thinking that this book was so incredibly important because you took something that almost seemed like it was supposed to be common sense. Like are we actually-- and-- but something we forgot about. Which is we were forgetting to put the faces on the data, and to talk about the lives of students.

[00:05:19.16] And that's why I found that book to be so impactful because at a time when I was still a school principal in New York state, which was increasing accountability, and talking about data and talking about all of that, I almost had a critical view of data. And I read your book, and it changed my perspective. And I really do mean that. I was in a bad place when it came to data. I was starting to be in a negative place just because of the accountability movement. And I read your book, and I instantly went back to, OK, I get it.

[00:05:51.63] LYN SHARRATT: Yeah. That was so-- that was so amazing. That happened as I was superintendent in a very large school district North of Toronto. And everybody was grumbling about data. And then statistical nature, and we were having arguments. And finally, I don't know, it was one of those light bulb moments that you have periodically where I said, look, those are real kids that we're talking about. Let's put the faces on those students.

[00:06:26.24] Who are they? What do we know about them? Let's talk about where they've been. Who knows these students? Do we all know 10 things about that student beyond the academics? And how can we come together and put faces on-- real faces on the data through photos and take a look at those students that were really wondering about?

[00:06:50.33] So our first data walls, and they continue to be wondering walls and questioning walls, what do we know about each face? And how to teach each one. That's the key. So we move from widgets and percentages to actual numbers of students, and then we progress to tags that had their pictures on them.

[00:07:12.92] And they were in a private place. And that was one of those aha moments. This is for us to talk about students, and move from knowing one thing about them to knowing many things about them. And then connecting that to a meeting where we would come and talk about instruction. The assessment, not the student, the student's piece of work comes to the case management meeting.

[00:07:40.59] And we unpack positively, what can this student do? And then it's an asset-based approach because we build on what we already know about the student. And in doing that in a small meeting we raise the capacity of teachers and leaders to teach all students, know each student, and teach each one.

[00:08:03.00] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. And I think in those cases it's so easy depending on who your leader is, what school you're coming from, to have a deficit mindset when it comes to the data. And what I enjoyed about the book is that it gave the whole child perspective. It helped people who might have that deficit mindset going to more of a positive and a growth mindset for a lack of a better way of saying it.

[00:08:27.60] LYN SHARRATT: Yeah.

[00:08:28.08] PETER DEWITT: What is different-- so why did you do the-- with the 10th anniversary, what inspired you to come back to that subject 10 years later?

[00:08:38.04] LYN SHARRATT: Yeah, it was interesting, Peter, because our publisher, Corwin, wrote an email to both Michael Fullan and I and said, you know it's been 10 years. Are you interested in doing a sequel?

[00:08:52.60] You know, at first I looked at the email and thought, 10 years? It couldn't possibly be 10 years. And then Michael wrote and said, well, what do you think? You think we could do that? And I'm-- it was one of those moments where I said, sure, we can do it. And then you know how much work there is in writing a book.

[00:09:10.29] PETER DEWITT: [LAUGHS] Yeah.

[00:09:10.81] LYN SHARRATT: It's like-- through the whole thing, ugh, why are we doing this? But then we kept thinking, I kept thinking of those students' faces that I've met all along the way who actually were able to learn to read and to write and to think critically. And so those faces inspired us both and we said, you know, it's a really great title and we've got really great work in that book. We'll review it, we'll put in all new case studies, and vignettes, and our new thinking that augments the first edition. So that's what we did. So it literally just came out.

[00:09:47.21] PETER DEWITT: That's-- congratulations. And yeah, I had-- so Michael has been a guest on the podcast as well. And I very much enjoy the two of you coming back to something that might seem like common sense, but it's the human side of all of this as well. Right? It's not--

[00:10:04.49] LYN SHARRATT: Exactly.

[00:10:04.73] PETER DEWITT: --just the data side, it's the human side which I absolutely love especially at this time after COVID. One of the--

[00:10:11.83] LYN SHARRATT: Yeah.

[00:10:12.17] PETER DEWITT: --you were talking-- you know, you were a school leader and now you do all this very impactful work around the world which I want to definitely get deeper into. But I want to ask, how did your experience as a district leader prepare you for the work that you're doing now?

[00:10:32.75] LYN SHARRATT: Oh, I lean on my work as a district leader constantly because if we don't have a clear vision, if we don't have that strategic plan that supports the clear vision, if teachers and leaders in every school don't have the skills to do this work and the resources to do this work, it's our opportunity to scaffold their learning in a very I think deep and personal way. Taking teachers and leaders from where they are to where they need to become teachers of all students.

[00:11:18.95] And I really mean all. So this is teachers and leaders becoming intervention teachers. They know how to teach each student. So that's the big piece, Peter, of being a district leader. The small piece, so thinking big but starting small. Michael Fullan and I have an evidence-based framework for system in school improvement. We call the 14 parameters. And we invite our leaders and teachers to come in school teams. To assess where they are and where their data may be against those 14.

[00:11:55.23] And they select 1, 6 and 14 as a non-negotiable, but then work on one other that reflects their data. And that's the way we start. We do four small steps, and when they see improvement and they go deeply into those four. Then they select other of the parameters. And really, the parameters were weave together.

[00:12:20.47] So there's a process, and it starts with district leadership having a clear vision. Knowing what the data says. And at the system level also having a data wall that looks at how schools are being differentiated by their support. And so for me, it's really that flowchart in our minds of the importance of district leadership reaching out and walking alongside school leaders, and having a framework to assess where everyone is at.

[00:12:55.60] PETER DEWITT: Was there anything that ever-- when you left your district leadership role and started to do all of this research and all the work when you started to work with schools and leaders, was there anything that you naturally did as a school leader that you were a little surprised that people weren't doing in their roles when they were-- does that question make sense?

[00:13:18.20] LYN SHARRATT: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think moving out of my very large jurisdiction in Northern I decided I wanted to teach. I wanted to continue to teach. So I do continue to teach at the University of Toronto. My students are just a little bit bigger.

[00:13:34.40] PETER DEWITT: [LAUGHS]

[00:13:34.95] LYN SHARRATT: I wanted to ensure that there was a direct line from that system leadership position to the school leadership position to every teacher. So I was going to continue to teach. And what I found really surprising was that no one really made the specific link between the curriculum expectations, and the work of assessment that improves instruction in every classroom.

[00:14:05.12] So I really work hard at ensuring that those folks I work with start with the curriculum. And it's that waterfall chart in clarity that helps us with that framework. And that framework fits inside parameter number three, that we have quality teaching and learning. That is assessment that informs instruction in every classroom. So to me everything fits together, but our mandate is as teachers and leaders to start with the curriculum expectations.

[00:14:43.28] So I use a unit of study as my example. And I ask people to find the curriculum expectations for it. We develop our learning intentions, we are learning too, we are learning about, we are learning that. And from the learning intentions in the curriculum expectations you can find this, the standards. They become the student-friendly in appropriate student-friendly language for that year level the success criteria.

[00:15:17.52] And I think, Peter, the other surprise I think I've had is if teachers understand we start with the curriculum expectations and we unpack them in student-friendly language year appropriate level for students, we deconstruct work on the words. Then we often skip the next step. So students know how to be successful while actually they don't. So we need to then find the success criteria statements in the curriculum, and de-- not deconstruct the learning intentions, but co-construct the success criteria with students. So students live in how to be successful.

[00:16:02.85] And for me that assessment piece of the waterfall chart is really the heart of system and school improvement. If we built that culture of learning, that third teacher surrounding the schools and the students with that focus on learning and how to be successful then everything else in our waterfall chart depends on the success criteria. We give students descriptive feedback against the co-constructed success criteria.

[00:16:34.53] We give students opportunity to peer and self-assess against the success criteria. And finally, we have students setting their own goals for learning against the success criteria. So that's really key. And that's a surprise to me as you ask because it's not really clear that there is a process there to become assessment-literate.

[00:17:03.69] And as John Hattie says-- and I love John's effect sizes. And you and I studied John together, studied John's work together. We look at those effect sizes that validate this work. So when I look at the assessment waterfall chart, and John and I have talked about this. I think it has a value of an effect size of 2 because he looks at them individually, I look at them together. They're powerful.

[00:17:31.50] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. Do you think student-- do you think what do you say to teachers, and I'm sure you've probably experienced this when you're running professional learning as well, what do you say to teachers who kind of resist the idea of developing success criteria with their students? Do you ever experience that?

[00:17:51.59] LYN SHARRATT: Absolutely. Because teachers say to me, oh, this takes too much time and you know I have to cover the curriculum.

[00:17:58.56] PETER DEWITT: Yeah.

[00:17:59.25] LYN SHARRATT: Yeah. So I say, well, I first about say, oh, just do it. Give it a go. Just once. And you know--

[00:18:07.86] [LAUGHTER]

[00:18:08.16] --I think I'm going to write a book someday Peter that says, "Just Do It." But I actually think Nike wouldn't like that.

[00:18:15.47] PETER DEWITT: [LAUGHS] Yeah, I was going to say might get in trouble there.

[00:18:17.55] LYN SHARRATT: Yeah, exactly. You know, I have a lot of-- I work with primary schools, elementary schools, middle schools, and secondary schools. And secondary school teachers often say my curriculum course is so jam full I'll never get time to stop and co-construct meaning through developing a process to unpack the success criteria.

[00:18:45.12] And I say to them, you know, if you just take a look at a learning intention and put it up on a screen or hopefully something where it won't go away, actually, and then take baby steps. So we know the endpoint is students living in the success criteria. But I just encourage them you know just put one that you've discovered when students are working on wicked problems. Just stop for a moment say, ah, I want the two of you to say something, what can you do now that you couldn't do before this wicked problem investigation started?

[00:19:25.95] And they say, I know what concave and convex mirrors are. I can distinguish between the two. Excellent. So write it down on a chart paper, on the iPad, wherever it is and hopefully it won't go away. And in that way it's embedded in our teaching. I use that with my students at university, and we together just take a moment in solving some wicked problem to say, what can you do now that you couldn't do before? And record that in a visible way. So it's baby steps towards where we want them to be.

[00:20:06.97] But a writing clarity, I have in Armadale here in Australia regiments with principal of O'Connor Catholic collegiate was that one of my sessions and said, oh, and I'm really busy. That sounds like an amazing process, but I'm really busy. So I said, Reg, why don't you give it a try? So not only was she the principal of the Catholic school, but she taught a section of year 12 chemistry with a new teacher. How good is that?

[00:20:38.20] PETER DEWITT: Mhm.

[00:20:38.74] LYN SHARRATT: And so Reg gave it a go with Bradley Powers, and she wrote me back about three weeks later and said, oh, wow, at the end of this unit 100% of the students accomplished an A because we had set the success criteria so specifically geared to what an A looks like. That she said it was magnificent. They all excelled. And so of course, what did I say? Reg, write that up for me.

[00:21:11.40] PETER DEWITT: [LAUGHS] Exactly.

[00:21:14.25] LYN SHARRATT: As we do, right, Peter? As we do. And so absolutely, she has a section in that chapter on assessment and instruction-- I guess just on assessment of how to co-construct success criteria at the secondary level. So there are lots of examples of teachers really being able to unpack with students what the assessment will be. So it will be no surprise to students when they come to the final assessment task in a unit of study what they need to be able to do. And I think that's only fair for students.

[00:21:52.51] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. And I developed success criteria with adults when I'm coaching and running workshops and stuff. Because I think it's been a really great way to elevate their voice, but also to keep us all on track of what we actually value out of this. You mentioned clarity, and I want to be able to get to a couple of things because I could talk to you forever. But you have the book on clarity, but you also have the CLARITY Learning Suite. How are these two things connected? And can you tell me a little bit more about that?

[00:22:23.78] LYN SHARRATT: Absolutely. So I think around 2016, Arnis, and we know Arnis, our editor, said write everything-- I want you to write a book everything you know about system and school improvement. So it became the book of 11-- it became the book of 611 pages.

[00:22:44.17] PETER DEWITT: Wow.

[00:22:44.87] LYN SHARRATT: And Arnis wrote back to me and said, Lyn, we've never published a 611-page book as an educational text. And so he said cut it in half. I went, [GASPS] cut it in half.

[00:22:57.80] PETER DEWITT: [LAUGHS]

[00:22:58.28] LYN SHARRATT: So it took me another two years. I cut it in half. And so at about the same time, one of my colleagues in Australia and two from New Zealand said to me, you know, you really need to get this work on record. You know, this is so impactful, it's making a difference to increase students' growth and achievement everywhere. It needs to go on record.

[00:23:29.04] So they had-- they had a little different view than I did. And so they actually convinced me and also my husband, Jim, to think about a platform. So Mike Ogram from New Zealand developed the most amazing platform that's very interactive, drop down, and not only 24/7 but all my resources that I use in my sessions are available.

[00:23:55.63] And so it became the CLARITY Learning Suite. And it wasn't a workshop, it's 12 modules that absolutely reflect clarity what matters most in learning, teaching, and leading. Everything I do from introduction of the 14 parameters then to going deeply into assessment, instruction, and of course, leadership. Because leadership underpins and is essential to go deeply into the improvement work in every school.

[00:24:29.86] So it's certainly available, and I continue to put up my resources, new resources, videos. I love videos, and so 12 modules, 43 sessions I videoed several and integrated in each session a fundamental challenge that reflects the teaching. And we have over-- we have over 1,600 participants now.

[00:24:58.86] PETER DEWITT: Wow.

[00:24:59.23] LYN SHARRATT: [INAUDIBLE].

[00:24:59.62] PETER DEWITT: Congratulations. That's-- I mean, that's such an amazing resource. I-- you know this because I've talked to you before, but you have always been one of my role models when it comes to delivering professional learning. Just not only with your level of depth, level of experience, and everything else that you have, but also with the fact that you don't do it in a one and done kind of fashion. It definitely has to be a relationship that has to be long term. And that's what all the greatest research says about professional learning. But you're somebody who actually does that really well.

[00:25:32.11] LYN SHARRATT: And Peter--

[00:25:32.71] PETER DEWITT: As we wrap it up, can you talk a little bit about that? Your professional learning model. Because I think a lot of people need to learn from you where that's concerned. It's so easy for them to go do a one and done, go to a conference, go to whatever, but the way you do it is so impactful and so real. So can you talk a little bit about that?

[00:25:49.33] LYN SHARRATT: Yeah. My first message in our sessions is we don't do anything-- we don't ask schools to do anything that we're not prepared to do as system leaders. So if we think it's important in parameter six to put faces on the data by having a small data wall who those faces are, and that lead to a case management meeting.

[00:26:14.71] Everyone in the groups that I work with must also do the same thing. So I work with system leaders, and at every session the system leaders are there sitting among the table groups. I work with-- and we usually do a cohort, so I work maybe five years in a jurisdiction. I work there until I see great improvement.

[00:26:37.02] PETER DEWITT: Mhm.

[00:26:37.51] LYN SHARRATT: And so we'll work in cohorts if it's a large system. And I'm here in South Australia. All of South Australia Catholic education 101 schools are with me and were with me yesterday. They come in school teams. There's an expectation that what I present the schools will chunk out, and take back in small bits to staff.

[00:27:02.83] So every staff knows what they know. And we keep this going. I come twice a year, and in the meantime, I do check-ins with school teams on Zoom. Which has been probably one of the only benefits for me of COVID other than the CLARITY Learning Suite. That there have been some aspiring leaders have emerged through this process.

[00:27:25.25] But I think John Hattie's words ring really true to me, so what? What's the impact? So I've been writing what's the impact both in clarity and demonstrating impact knowing students' faces how to teach each and moving them from a D or an E to an A or a B, and the instructional approaches to make that happen.

[00:27:48.23] So impact is really big for me in this work. I think that's the integrity that we need to ask ourselves as leaders. Am I making a difference for every student, every learner, teacher, and leader in my care? And when I think of impact, I've just worked across Wales using the clarity text. And Dr. Alma Harris, who I think we both know very well.

[00:28:17.52] PETER DEWITT: I do know her.

[00:28:18.53] LYN SHARRATT: Yeah. I was working and I asked the Welsh government who I was working for that I needed to have someone research what I was doing all the time. I was working across all secondary schools in each jurisdiction in Wales. And so they selected Alma, thank goodness. And Alma and her team provided that research. And I can send you that report to the Welsh government about the work and clarity.

[00:28:47.34] PETER DEWITT: OK.

[00:28:48.14] LYN SHARRATT: Has being very positive, but also for me important that it's about impact.

[00:28:52.76] PETER DEWITT: I think so. And that's I think that's where we're going to end it because you definitely inspire me to always want to make sure that I'm focusing on impact. And you do such a fantastic job of it in everything that you do. Whether it's writing books, delivering professional learning in person, doing it online with the CLARITY Learning Suite. So, Lyn Sharratt, thank you so much for being on Leaders Coaching Leaders.

[00:29:20.47] LYN SHARRATT: Thanks so much, Peter DeWitt. I hope we see each other again soon.

[00:29:24.08] PETER DEWITT: Absolutely.

[00:29:25.21] [UPBEAT SOUND]

[00:29:29.11] All right, Tanya, so one of the things-- well, there are many things that I really admire about Lyn. Number one, people probably don't know this, but I'm highly intimidated when I get into a conversation with Lyn. I really am. I'm not just saying that. There are times when you're in the room with somebody who you know is very, very smart, and I'm worried that-- I hope I don't say anything unintelligent when I'm with Lyn. But she's just so calming, and I enjoy our conversations. And she's deep on many levels.

[00:30:01.55] And one of the things that I enjoyed, I need-- it actually-- the conversation inspired me to ask this question during the podcast which was, she was talking about being a district leader at a very large district in Toronto. And I like instantly thought about people who write books and people who come in with experiences. Sometimes that missing piece is that you have these ideas, but they don't always connect well from a district standpoint.

[00:30:30.11] Or sometimes you're a district leader, and you can't bring it to an area where people could understand it in a book. And you know, you, Morgan, and I talk in a podcast about writing books, writing educational books. So when I was thinking about Lyn and I asked that question about she went from teacher to building leader, to district leader, to running workshops, she's highly respected. I mean, when I talk to her today it was-- she's an Australian presently, and she spends a lot of time there. I mean, she's world renowned.

[00:31:04.25] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.

[00:31:04.70] PETER DEWITT: And she can really bring it and bring to a level that we understand. So I think has a really-- she has a really great way of offering the practical and the theoretical all at the same time.

[00:31:18.80] TANYA GHANS: Yeah. She definitely bridges and marries that theory and practice as good as anyone. Yeah, listening to this, I mean, the thing that I really, really like about Lyn and her work, and I think speaks to the figure that she is in the field is everything she says that for some people is just a saying or a platitude, or just kind of empty like all children can learn.

[00:31:42.49] PETER DEWITT: Yes.

[00:31:43.25] TANYA GHANS: Then she adds this piece of-- she says teachers and leaders becoming intervention teachers. Like part of her practice is everybody thinks about what do all children need? And when you hear her say things like that, you understand why she's able to get the kind of-- her and her team it's never a job of one, but having a leader who gets this matters. And that she really instills this idea that it's not any one person's job to do a piece of the work, it's everybody's job, and it's a mindset. And just a line like that for me really crystallizes why this work continues to be so important a decade later, and will likely be a decade beyond.

[00:32:26.63] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. To me she's the epitome of when I-- I mean, actually years ago I wrote a blog about 18 women all educators should know, and--

[00:32:35.63] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.

[00:32:35.79] PETER DEWITT: --one was Lyn. Was on the list. And I wanted to-- I focused on her because quite honestly, when I'm writing about instructional leadership or when I'm thinking about instructional leadership, Lyn to me is the epitome of somebody that I think of when it comes to instructional leadership.

[00:32:51.53] So when we look at research that says we all need to understand-- we have to have a deep understanding-- or we have to have a understanding, knowledge, and also the skills of what it means to be a good learner, Lyn is one of those people that has held many roles and can do all three. She has the understanding, she has the knowledge, and she has the skills. So she is to me she's the epitome of what I think of for sure when I think of an instructional leader.

[00:33:15.50] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, she certainly personifies it. So everyone, this was a great listen. I would imagine lots of people agree, and I'm glad that we were able to share this with you. So, Peter, until we learn again next time, I look forward to seeing you.

[00:33:31.53] PETER DEWITT: Thanks. And you know what, Tanya? That's absolutely what it means. Because when we do this podcast it is about me entering into a discussion where I'm going to learn something. So it's definitely the way that we're approaching these. So yes.

[00:33:43.73] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, we're learners too.

[00:33:44.63] PETER DEWITT: Always good to partner with you and see you. And thank you everybody for listening.

[00:33:48.35] TANYA GHANS: Thank you, everyone. Again, see you next time.

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