The Age of Identity: Who do Our Kids Think They Are?

Series 6 Leaders Coaching Leaders

[00:00:00.34] NARRATOR: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast with host Peter DeWitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning not by chance but by design.

[00:00:19.53] TANYA GHANS: Hello, Peter.

[00:00:21.41] PETER DEWITT: Hey, Tanya. How are you?

[00:00:22.67] TANYA GHANS: I'm good. How are you?

[00:00:24.08] PETER DEWITT: I am doing well, actually. Thank you for asking.

[00:00:27.10] TANYA GHANS: Have you been running recently? Why do I feel like you've been running recently?

[00:00:30.72] PETER DEWITT: I have been running. I just did a half marathon. And I'm a little bummed that you weren't at the starting line with me. But I did a half marathon here in Albany, New York, where I live. So yeah.

[00:00:41.15] TANYA GHANS: Next time. Listeners, you can hold me to it.

[00:00:43.58] [LAUGHTER]

[00:00:45.56] All right. So as always, we have really fascinating guests who are luminaries in the field. And today, these two guests definitely speak to that. We have on Andrew or Andy Hargraves-- Hargreaves, excuse me-- and Dennis Shirley. They've done so much that they probably don't need much of an introduction. They have such a long history with an emphasis on educational change and social justice.

[00:01:14.63] So I'm really thrilled that we have them on today to talk about what is a really timely topic. And that is the topic of identity. I don't know where you'd have to be living to not have-- to not be frankly bombarded with a lot of talk and discourse around identity and feel how complex and difficult this topic is.

[00:01:36.36] So their latest book is called The Age of Identity-- Who Do Our Kids Think They Are and How Do We Help Them Belong? It's a book where they meticulously explore the history of identity but also ask readers a lot of probing questions and try to complicate this conversation, which I do-- I think it needs complicating. I think they are really pushing to expand the idea of inclusion, move away from all kinds of binaries. And I think this conversation, you all are really-- listeners are going to really see how respectful they are to such a nuanced and complicated topic.

[00:02:16.56] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, I think that was beautiful, how you said that. Because you're right, it was-- people will notice during the interview that there are these-- there's a spectrum. And they complicate it. At the same time, they clarify it. And people often-- one of the things I said at the end is with identity, it's this monolith sometimes where you're kind of like, you're this identity. And that's all. You have to check that box. And yet, what we find through the conversation is that it is much more nuanced.

[00:02:53.30] And to me, one of the things that I thought was important during the conversation that people will hear is this is not just about kids in school, although that's for sure important for kids in school. But we also got into the conversation of understanding our identity helps us as we age. And people hear me talk about when you get to retirement.

[00:03:19.58] And maybe you were a teacher or a school principal or a superintendent. And you identify so much with the position that when you retire, you're a little bit lost because you're wondering, who am I now? And we've even talked about that.

[00:03:31.93] So I feel like we've covered anywhere from birth and death and everywhere in between. But what a really interesting conversation.

[00:03:42.71] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, we covered a lot in a short period of time. But I think people are going to walk away feeling edified, curious. It really speaks to just who they are as thinkers and as researchers, what you'll get when you get the book and you read it. I think listeners, you're really in for an important listen for people who are leaders who are on the front lines who are forced to grapple with these issues, whether they want to or not.

[00:04:10.32] We know it's their meeting you at the front door a lot of times and that just burying your head in the sand probably, it's not going to really work like figuring out a different response. And I think this is an episode that, again, like you said, be clarifying. This could help.

[00:04:29.23] PETER DEWITT: Well, I'm looking forward to-- or I hope people are looking forward to hearing it. Because I mean, first and foremost, it's Dennis Shirley and Andy Hargreaves. And this was truly international. I'm here in upstate New York. And you're in the New York City area. And then we've got Andy in Ottawa. And we've got Dennis hanging out in Italy. So--

[00:04:49.34] TANYA GHANS: Great.

[00:04:49.91] PETER DEWITT: --this was very much international. But it's Dennis Shirley and Andy Hargreaves. And one of the things that I-- I mean, I've known them for a long time now. And they're just deeply passionate about things.

[00:05:03.49] I think one of the things-- and I didn't talk to them about this. But I think one of the things people need to understand about researchers like Andy and Dennis is that they're deeply passionate about learning. And you may have said it on air. But they definitely said it off air, that they learned a lot about themselves in this research. And that's just awesome to hear. So I hope everybody enjoys the conversation because I certainly did. It was good for my soul.

[00:05:30.90] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, yes, yes. All right, well, we will let them do the rest of the talking. And I will see you on the other side.

[00:05:39.98] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:05:42.63] NARRATOR: Come explore Corwin's free new teacher toolkit and resources. We've curated these resources based on extensive research from teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran teacher, find ready to go teaching tools at corwin.com today.

[00:06:00.14] PETER DEWITT: Andy Hargreaves and Dennis Shirley, welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast.

[00:06:05.65] ANDY HARGREAVES: Welcome. Glad to be here.

[00:06:07.81] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Thank you. Looking forward to the conversation.

[00:06:11.06] PETER DEWITT: It's so good to have you on. And I just want to jump into-- let's jump into the new book first. And then we can go wherever the conversation takes me. But, Dennis , you and Andy wrote The Age of Identity-- Who Do Our Kids Think They Are and How Do We Help Them Belong? This is a really important yet nuanced conversation. So I'm going to go to you first, Dennis. Why did you decide that this was a book that the two of you wanted to write?

[00:06:41.04] DENNIS SHIRLEY: So we were doing research in Ontario. And the government had four priorities for the educational system. This is pre-COVID. And one of them had to do with promoting student well-being. And we found that one of the ways that the 10 districts we were studying were trying to promote student well-being was by promoting their identity. Because there have been a number of identities that have been oppressed and marginalized.

[00:07:08.02] So often, we think of racial identities. In Canada, it might be more indigenous identities. A number of districts were working on LGBTQ issues. Also, thinking about the identities of students who have special needs, who have learning disabilities. That's a particular kind of identity.

[00:07:28.28] So we didn't say we want to go out to schools to study identities. We went out to schools to study how districts were implementing the government agenda. And identity was everywhere. And we decided that we would see what was happening. And that was really how the book began.

[00:07:48.92] PETER DEWITT: So, Andy, what did you find when you started doing this work? Because I would venture to guess that we have many more identities to talk about than maybe we recognized years ago. So how did this stick out to you? How did the identity concept stick out to you when you were trying to do this work? And what did you learn?

[00:08:15.75] ANDY HARGREAVES: Yeah, thanks, Peter. First of all, our great privilege is we're professors. So we're paid to watch people, listen to people, help them and support them where we can by feeding stuff back to them. And then the greatest privilege of all is we're paid to read stuff. Like, we actually get time to read stuff for which we get good money.

[00:08:42.04] And so we began by trying to understand and in some cases showcase great things that districts were doing responding to the idea that identity was a big part of inclusion. And that inclusion is a big part of achievement. So it's hard to achieve unless you feel included. And it's hard to feel included unless in some important ways the school understands and pays attention to who you are and its curriculum and the way it works with you and so on.

[00:09:14.33] So that is where we began. And as we started reading around to think-- well, what can we learn about identity? What do we already know? What do the psychologists have to say? What are the anthropologists have to say? Or what do the cultural theorists have to say? What are people looking at now around identity issues?

[00:09:37.13] So very contemporary concerns with things like intersectionality. That's when we have multiple things that we're dealing with as a human being, not just one. So we may be poor, but we're not only poor. We may be Black. We may not just be Black, but we may be marginalized in other ways. We may be female. So people don't come in ones and twos with their identities. The identities come in whole bundles.

[00:10:09.14] And then in the press, frankly, on the media, on our social media feeds, particularly within the last two years, two or three years, we've seen a noticed that there are huge controversies around identity all across the political spectrum. Songs are banned. Books are banned. And, again, not just from one perspective, but from different perspectives.

[00:10:38.13] And so we started to think, what does our work have to contribute to this debate? So it is not quite so adversarial and confrontational putting a lot of leaders on the spot, actually, in terms of not really knowing what to do.

[00:10:53.96] But how can this work we've done and the reading we've done around it-- and to some extent also drawing on our own life experiences, how can this help us open the debate so more people pay attention to oppression and marginalization and exclusion as significant parts of what they have to deal with and that also, when they do that, they try to approach it in a way that doesn't begin with certainties and set opinions but that involves listening more closely to each other, having more empathy for each other's point of view, and trying actually as a professional community to be inclusive about the way we deal with inclusion?

[00:11:45.43] PETER DEWITT: So one of the things that you-- you had a lot there that you were saying. And I know over the past few years, there's been this pushback against social emotional learning. There are people that are going to be listening to this saying, Dennis and Andy, you don't get it.

[00:12:02.63] We get so much pushback. We have parents showing up to our board meetings. And a lot of people are saying, schools are a place where you just need to focus on academics. So why is this such an important conversation? And given the importance, why is it so controversial? So, Dennis, I'll start with you on that one. Why is this such an important conversation in general? And then why is this so controversial?

[00:12:33.70] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Well, I think that the answer for why it's so important, you can just look at some of the statistics for LGBTQ kids and suicide attempts or kids of color not completing high school. You can look at any number of numbers in which identity issues are implicated. So that's a kind of a-- that's a kind of a very simple way to begin the conversation.

[00:12:59.35] But one of the things I'm really proud of with the book is the idea that not just students who are from marginalized populations have identities, stigmatized identities. But everybody has an identity. And so how can we create conversations in which people can talk about their complex, overlapping identities?

[00:13:22.09] And, Peter, I think that there's ways to do this that get beyond the polarization really quickly and are kind of fun. So when you write a book about identity, you start asking people, well, tell me about your identity. And one person will say, my identity is my hair. Seriously, you know? And then somebody else will say my identity is my clothes. And yes, of course, people will say, race, gender orientation, and all of those things.

[00:13:52.83] But there's so much more that's going on with identities that could be point of for inclusion. And we do have a crisis in many societies, the US among them, with loneliness and epidemic of loneliness. And that's really tragic that people feel that they are not seen, that they don't belong anywhere. And I think that there's an opportunity there for us to think about how can we bring people in, how can we welcome them. And this would go across the spectrum.

[00:14:32.94] So one of the things-- I came across this some years ago. But if people asked me for my politics, I'd say I belong to the party of education. So how can we frame things in terms of education, promoting learning, human development, flourishing, all of those things? And if we just try to do the academic stuff, we're going to leave so many kids behind, so many kids out.

[00:15:03.32] So I think that that's the answer to your question for why it's so important. And also, a bit what are the opportunities that we can have. And I do understand. I sympathize with people who have been told, you can't do anything about gender, can't use this book, can't teach that statue, all of those things.

[00:15:26.57] I was fortunate. When I was in high school, I had teachers who loved to expose us to many different points of view. And, boy, was that exciting. And students really don't like it when we preach at them for many perspective. That's self-determination theory.

[00:15:41.91] So I think there's an opportunity here. But I am mindful about the minefield that's out there for many educators. And we have to acknowledge that and work with that.

[00:15:54.71] PETER DEWITT: I enjoy, Dennis, the answer about the education piece because I think you're absolutely right. And one of the pieces of research that I've remembered from over a long time is Odutola's research in 1972 that talked about our students were alienated from our schools because they don't have an emotional connection to their teacher school, or they don't have a voice in their own learning.

[00:16:17.48] And that's part of what you're doing. But, Andy, I feel like-- and I've known you both for a while. I feel this book is also about humanizing this. And that's what-- I mean, I was fortunate enough to read it before it was published. And I feel like it was all about how can we humanize things.

[00:16:37.47] Because we've gotten so-- some of the rhetoric has just become so evil. And I feel like the two of you were talking more about how can we interact like humans and humanize this conversation around identity. Am I off on that? Or am I correct, Andy?

[00:16:52.38] ANDY HARGREAVES: No, I think it is a very humanistic book. And another part of my professional life, I bring together ministers from-- secretaries of education from seven systems, countries, and states provinces who are committed to democracy inclusion, equity, human rights. So this is a big part of who I am. I think it's a big part of who Dennis and I are.

[00:17:23.88] And a great starting principle for all learning is you begin with where the learner is. So you begin with their prior knowledge and what they know. And you begin quite explicitly in some countries' curricula with who they are and what is their developing self, who they want to be, what they feel part of.

[00:17:47.79] And a difficulty with the identity debate is there's loads of people going around pointing fingers, telling people who they are, or telling people which box they fall into. And, for instance-- I talk about them in the book-- I've got five grandchildren. All of them are mixed race. The vast number of mixed race people in America, there's no box for them to fall into. They don't appear in curriculum materials. They're not part of the discussion. Are they Black? Or are they white or are they one or the other? Where do they belong?

[00:18:24.18] And there's a lot of people out there who want to put them into one box or another to suit their own agendas in all kinds of ways. So take my grandson as an example. And he's in the book. So there's no surprises. He's 10 years old. And somebody else wanted to say what is his identity. They might say, well, he's a boy. He's mixed race. He's middle class.

[00:18:55.41] Well, the place to begin is by asking him. So Jackson said, what book are you writing at the moment? I said, well, I'm writing a book about identity. Well, that's really interesting. So I said, Jackson, what's your identity? And when you ask people this question-- and we ask people in all kinds of roles like taxi drivers, hairdressers, hotel receptionists of all kinds of colors and backgrounds all over-- nobody regards it as an uninteresting question. Nobody.

[00:19:25.62] And so Jackson's-- I said, like, give me three things about your identity. And he said, well, I'm Canadian. Because national identity is very important to a lot of people sometimes more than one national identity. And then he said I'm a brother. And when I said that-- because he got two sisters. When I fed that back to his mother, his mother cried. She thought it's such a lovely thing to say that he sees himself as a brother to his sisters. And then he said, and I'm a gamer.

[00:20:00.03] So whatever discussions you have about identity with Jackson as a 10-year-old or any 10-year-old, begin, like everything, with people sense of who they are and then help them figure out what they might become, how that involves other people, and what you can belong to together. I mean, this is like John Dewey 101, basically. But it's still alive and well and important in the world we're in today.

[00:20:30.95] PETER DEWITT: Well, it reminds me-- because I taught first grade for 7 out of 11 years. So we always started off with, who am I know, in the first week of school. And when I'm hearing Andy talk, Dennis, it makes me think about-- you see the deeper connection between if students are not only-- not only do they understand who they are, but the fact that they're allowed to articulate it within the classroom and be able to talk about it.

[00:20:59.80] I would venture to guess-- and you're the researchers. I would venture to guess that that would be a pretty strong case for developing student voice and helping students actually academically. I would think that it has a pretty powerful impact on students engaging academically as well.

[00:21:17.94] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Yeah, I think that's great, Peter. And the interesting thing is we often don't ask our students who they are. And then another interesting part is we don't ask our colleagues. And we don't ask ourselves who we are.

[00:21:31.92] So I think one of the most courageous things I ever saw in some professional development that I was leading in Darwin, Australia, was a principal who said-- and he was maybe 60, 65. He said, most of my life, I've known who I was and what I stood for and advocate that. But right now, I'm not so sure, which is he was negotiating one of Erik Erikson's stages.

[00:21:58.07] And, of course, that's interesting, isn't it? It's interesting that we don't just acquire an identity-- or I hope that we don't-- that's just frozen in time. But we go on growing and changing. And that can be really rich for our conversations with our colleagues.

[00:22:16.14] And I think-- Peter, earlier, you were talking about self-awareness of leaders. You're working on a book where that theme is very prevalent. Well, I think it's something that we all could benefit from is some introspection.

[00:22:32.58] I'll be very interested in the response to the book, because this book actually has a lot of questions. It asks readers to reflect for themselves on who their identity is right now and who they are becoming. And I hope that people will read those sections and will get to know themselves better and will become better leaders and better teachers.

[00:22:54.18] PETER DEWITT: Well, Dennis, I want to go with what you were just saying too, because you're triggering another thought for me. When you're talking about this topic of identity and you were just talking about principal who's 60 or 65, made me think about, when I was a teacher, I identified as a teacher. I identified as a school principal.

[00:23:15.96] And now, I'm trying to figure out what my identity is because I don't like calling myself a consultant. So I'm like, I'm a leadership coach. I'm an author. But also, Andy, you were talking earlier about the whole idea of loneliness.

[00:23:29.37] And the thing that's interesting about identity with the way you're pursuing it is that often, when people retire, they struggle because they feel like they've lost their identity. Because we identify so many of us so closely to our profession and what we do, especially if you're an education, that when you retire, the identity piece becomes very important because how you identify yourself has changed.

[00:23:58.38] And that actually poses problems for people. They go from having the status to now they're a retired person, they don't always know how to identify. And that can be actually very lonely for them as well. Did you find that? Was that a part of it as well?

[00:24:15.22] ANDY HARGREAVES: Well, of course, you how can you write a book about identity and not be in the book [INAUDIBLE] about you? So we do have little scurrilous bits here and there about-- we whine a bit about being in that group that the waitstaff always move to the back of the restaurant. Because incoming younger customers don't want to see nearly dead people sitting in the window and putting them off their food. We do talk about not wanting to go into retirement communities full of only other retired people wearing pastel-colored polyester pants, playing golf all day, and eating early bird specials at the restaurant.

[00:25:01.57] So these are whimsical. But there's a serious question. And both of us are retired now. And in particular, I thought about this a lot for the few months before I decided to retire. I retired a bit early because we moved back to Canada to be near our grandchildren. She's a very significant part of my identity, actually, as a grandparent. And it turned out to be a spectacularly good decision.

[00:25:35.86] And, of course, the first thing you'd think about is, can I afford this? And then you go through that. But that is really a camouflage for a deeper question. And the deeper question for us and for many people around us is, who will I be? Because your line of work, when you meet people, what is one of the first things you ask? What do you do? What do you do? And it's just-- and it's not in a lot of the identity literature.

[00:26:08.77] And so I began to talk including with Dennis. I said, look, I'm going to retire. I'm going to go to the frozen North of Canada in Ottawa. And I know lots of people in Canada. I know practically nobody in Ottawa. I have no position there, nothing. What will I do if everything comes to a stop, my whole professional life?

[00:26:37.81] I move North, away from all the people I've known at Boston College. And everything stops-- the writing, the speeches, the applause, the students, the admiration, the gratitude. What will I do if all that stops? And then people, including Dennis, said, don't be stupid. You're famous. When you got more free time, people will be falling over themselves. I said, no, I really need to think about this question.

[00:27:07.11] I'm British. So I don't believe in Pollyanna theories of life, where everything is going to work out fine. I'm more inclined to look at what's the worst case scenario here, and can I deal with it? So the worst case scenario was it will all stop. It will all come to an end. I'll be done at 68 years old. How would I feel about that?

[00:27:30.39] And it took me about six weeks. And I decided I feel just fine. I'll feel just fine. I've had a good professional life. I think I've helped improve some things, help kids, help schools, helps educators. And I'll carry on writing. Nobody will read it, but I'll still carry on writing.

[00:27:54.86] PETER DEWITT: Wow, you are brutally honest and wrong about yourself, by the way.

[00:27:59.69] ANDY HARGREAVES: And--

[00:28:00.14] PETER DEWITT: At least one of us-- I would read it.

[00:28:02.42] ANDY HARGREAVES: Yeah, OK. So that's three of us, then. I have my grandchildren. I love my grandchildren. And COVID actually brought us so close together. And that is a monumentally important part of who I am. I have other interests, particularly hiking. So I walk more.

[00:28:30.41] And so I decided I'd be absolutely fine. But that's a-- we have colleagues for whom this question is a very difficult question.

[00:28:44.51] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, I mean, I could see why that is. When I'm running a workshop, I will use a protocol where I'll ask three questions. And they're in groups of three. It's called microlab. And one of the questions that I've started asking is, what do you want-- what do you want your leadership legacy to be?

[00:29:03.50] And you don't think of it when you're in it. You've got the day-to-day and all that stuff. So when you're having a very difficult conversation, you're not thinking to yourself, oh, I wonder what my legacy is going to be when I'm 20 years down the road. But it's a very interesting question to be able to ask. And it does tie into the identity piece.

[00:29:21.43] One of the things I want to get back to is more of, I guess, a little bit of the controversial side of it because the book spans a lot. And there are things in there, there are topics in there that I think people can digest and others that we know are really controversial. The two of you have been huge advocates for the LGBTQ community over the years.

[00:29:42.56] And I remember, Andy, I was with you in London. And you got up on stage for a keynote and started talking about safeguarding LGBTQ students. And what's interesting for me is that as a gay man, if I get up on stage and do that, people are thinking, I'm pushing an agenda. But I've always talked to you about the fact that you were able to do that. And people would definitely listen because they didn't see you as pushing an agenda.

[00:30:07.75] When the two of you were writing this book, is there a-- the reason you went into it as learners and then you started to see this topic come out, does that give you the ability to talk about a lot of controversial issues in a way that you'll get a pass and other people won't? And I don't know if that's a fair question.

[00:30:31.59] It reminds me of-- because I have. I've had people say, well, I know that you've done some work on LGBTQ students. And that was my doctoral dissertation. They know I'm gay. And they're like, but you can't talk about that here. So I've actually been banned from talking about those kind of conversations. Do you both get a pass where some of those things are concerned because you're going in as researchers and learners? Does that question make sense?

[00:30:57.12] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense. And so we're very privileged in this regard. We can do the advocacy without people saying, oh, this is self-interest, although they don't always know. My daughter is bisexual. And she's had to put up with some harassment, very painful, and that I wouldn't have known about if she wasn't my daughter.

[00:31:24.64] And so I'm actually-- when I do advocacy for LGBTQ students, it is self-interested, because I want her to flourish. And you could go through-- we write about mixed heritage children and identities. We write about identities that-- we're a little bit worried that some of our-- we'll lose some of our US readers.

[00:31:50.44] So the population in Ontario that speaks French and that goes to French language school and that we come across these great quotes where identity is more important than achievement. That's a really interesting statement. And the fact that it's coming from French Canadians in Ontario might make it easier for people who push back against identity issues to listen to it.

[00:32:17.71] So that's not so fair. But we're trying to open up some things there that-- Old Order Mennonite communities-- so we studied one school district that had 7% of the kids were Old Order Mennonites. They spoke German at home. They have very different orientation towards mainstream society.

[00:32:38.60] So I think that we're trying to pull in a lot of different identities. And at the same time, Andy and I are two old, white, straight, cisgendered men get all that out there. And that gives us, I think, a responsibility, a real responsibility to speak out and to take advantage of that privilege. I hope that our readers will feel that we've met that responsibility.

[00:33:10.29] ANDY HARGREAVES: If I can-- before you come back in with us, Peter, if-- it's such an important point that you raised. And I think there's four things come out of it if, I could get these through fairly crisply. But first is, as you know, the reason I started talking about LGBTQ issues in my presentations is not just that they're aligned with what I've stood for all my life, which is social justice and equity. But because actually somebody on our team as a graduate student came up to me and said, he wanted to work with me.

[00:33:49.59] And I said, why? And he said, well, you're famous in the field of educational change, and you've done fantastic work, and I think I've got so much I can learn from you. But in this thing that looks like a field, there is absolutely nothing about LGBTQ issues. And if I work with you, you can learn from me. And you'll become an advocate for that possibly within this field. And it turned out to be completely right.

[00:34:17.79] So the first thing is there are some people in identity politics who say, you can never fully understand what it is to be a gay man unless you're a gay man, for example. And there is a truth in that. Nobody can fully understand what it is like to be anybody else. But that doesn't mean we should give up or we should not bother or we should have no voice or no contribution. And if we believe in learning, we have to believe in the power of learning a lot, not everything, but a lot of what it is like to be somebody else and to include that in our social justice agenda.

[00:34:54.15] I think second is that helps us both understand that although identity is important to be celebrated, there are people with many identities. And the systems we've been in [INAUDIBLE] they can't show who they are. They have to hide who they are. Nobody can hide who they are.

[00:35:18.64] You're a gay man. You'll know what that felt like, perhaps not so much now. But 10, 20, 30 years ago, you'll know what that was like. I was diagnosed ADHD in my 50s. I'd hidden all the things that go with that for decades beforehand.

[00:35:38.90] George Michael, a gay man, and Ivor Novello, award-winning songwriter wrote a song before he came out with the line, guilty feet have got no rhythm. Now, think about that-- guilty feet have got no rhythm. And if you have to hide who you are, it not only damages who you are. It damages other people that you have relationships with.

[00:36:13.65] Thirdly, there's more to all of us than meets the eye to all of us. You're not just a gay man. You are a gay man. Perhaps you're especially a gay man. But you've already talked about other-- like, your professional identity, other parts. And what you see isn't always what you get. And there's more to all of us.

[00:36:34.68] So nobody would know looking at Dennis that he has a bisexual daughter, for example. And that's a very important part of who he is and what he stands for. Nobody would know looking at me that I grew up with several years from my mother on welfare and I was basically in charge of the family rather than the family being in charge of me. But you can't see that in me.

[00:36:58.44] So we need to try to get to grips with not just what's most visible but with the fullness and the complexity of who we all are, including the oppressed parts. But then, for many of us, you can't just divide us into two groups-- oppressor and oppressed. Many of us have got what we call conflicting parts of intersectionality.

[00:37:26.41] So you may be a persecuted faith group, for example, immigrated to America. But you're also homophobic. And perhaps the men are patriarchal. You may be Black or Hispanic and deeply marginalized because of that but also quite middle class and wealthy because the Black middle class has grown a lot.

[00:37:58.20] So who is more marginalized? A middle class Black individual or a poor, white working class Appalachian family addicted to fentanyl, for example? And that's an impossible question to answer because the many parts of the white working class are also xenophobic and racist.

[00:38:20.78] So we have these conflicting parts of our complex identities. And we argue towards the latter parts of the book not to sweep those under the table. But principles to be courageous, to be like the buffalo and face the storm, not run away from the storm, and find ways to navigate their community through these very important and difficult issues.

[00:38:50.07] PETER DEWITT: And I know we have to wrap it up. It's just such an interesting conversation. Because in some cases, identity is very nuanced, which we've talked about. And in other cases, it becomes this monolith where you're stuck with-- people stick you with one identity when there's so much more to it. And I just want to thank you both, not just for being on show, but I've been a huge fan of the two of you for a very long time.

[00:39:18.64] And this book was just-- when you first sent it to me-- Andy Hargreaves does not take no for an answer. But we all know that already. But when you sent the manuscript-- and you're like, The Age of Identity-- who Do Our Kids Think They Are and How Do We Help Them Belong? And I'm thinking, oh, what am I about to read?

[00:39:37.62] But I think you both have articulated this so well throughout the podcast because it's a deeply interesting book that I think we all can learn from regardless of what your background is. Because it's really about understanding who we are too as we're reading it. And so I just want to thank you both for being on the Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast and good luck with the book, because it's amazing.

[00:40:03.16] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Thank you so much, Peter. Really enjoyed the conversation.

[00:40:08.01] NARRATOR:

[00:40:10.47] TANYA GHANS: So, Peter, what did you think?

[00:40:13.55] PETER DEWITT: I felt like I was laying down on my therapist's couch. And I started just having this open conversation. Because I'm talking to Andy and Dennis. And you forget that you're being recorded and everything else. But it was just-- man, talking to the two of them is always a fantastic opportunity.

[00:40:35.21] I mean, I'm still like-- I'm still that guy that was doing my leadership degree. And I was reading Andy Hargreaves and Dennis Shirley. You know what I mean? So when I'm talking to them about this, I still have a little bit of that going on. But they have a way of clarifying a nuanced conversation in such a great way that I was just enamored the whole entire time.

[00:41:01.78] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, I mean, what's so interesting about this clarity piece is that I also walked away with sometimes part of the clarity is that it's unclear. And you have to be able to-- you have to be able to be OK with that. And if there's any-- if there's ever a topic where you have to get comfortable with not knowing or not walking in knowing or not making assumptions, it's this.

[00:41:22.78] So many things. Their idea about identity-- and I think people know this, but I think when you're just moving through life and you're busy working, you can forget that so much of identity is not visible. And there's just a fullness to it that the only way to really get at this is to really get to know people.

[00:41:42.81] I thought the quote where I think it resonated with you and it resonated with me as well where he says, I belong to the party of education. And then I think it was-- I can't remember if Dennis or Andy. But it was like--

[00:41:52.86] PETER DEWITT: It's Dennis, yes.

[00:41:53.58] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, and then when I was like-- the party of human development or flourishing. And it's like, you know that's true for all of us. It's like, there are these goals that I think so many of us share. And if we can center those sometimes too as our North Star, what could that open up in terms of possibilities?

[00:42:17.12] PETER DEWITT: Dennis, to me, is a Renaissance man. I remember [INAUDIBLE].

[00:42:22.27] TANYA GHANS: That's it.

[00:42:23.13] PETER DEWITT: I remember we were all at the [? EXE ?] conference in Norway. And I was having dinner with Russ Quaglia, Andy Hargreaves, Dennis Shirley, and a few other people. And just hearing Dennis speak, I thought, I want to be Dennis Shirley. He's this Renaissance man, speaks different languages, knows a ton about art and music. And I'm just sitting there going, oh, I feel so inept sitting across from Dennis Shirley. And I'm lucky I'm picking up the right fork.

[00:42:54.61] But yeah, they just-- that's the thing too is that they're both very intelligent guys. But they also talk about that we make assumptions about people based on what we see. And we need to not do that. And I just think going back to the-- yeah, his answer about education was really interesting to me. That self-awareness piece is [INAUDIBLE].

[00:43:22.52] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.

[00:43:23.54] PETER DEWITT: That's something that I'm pursuing now with Mike Nelson. But it's just really interesting to think about who are we and whole idea of our legacy, what do we-- what are we leaving behind. So very--

[00:43:37.04] [INTERPOSING VOICES]

[00:43:38.63] PETER DEWITT: --pull me out. Pull me out. It feels like I'm--

[00:43:41.74] TANYA GHANS: You and I are both sucked in. So, OK, a little cold water. Pinch myself around a bit. Listeners, I hope that you got as much out of this as Peter and I did. There's just so much to continue chewing on after this kind of conversation. And so I look forward to seeing and learning with you next time. This is fantastic. I don't know what we'll follow up with it. But I know it'll be something great. Well, I of do because I am behind the scenes. But this was a great one.

[00:44:14.72] PETER DEWITT: It was. And we're always looking for feedback. But this is definitely a pod-- this is definitely an interview that you want to go back and listen to again. And you've got to go into it with an open mind in the first place, so.

[00:44:25.50] TANYA GHANS: Open minds, yes. Yes, open minds.

[00:44:27.94] PETER DEWITT: And you're always awesome to spend time.

[00:44:31.27] TANYA GHANS: Until next time.

[00:44:32.93] [MUSIC PLAYING]