Dream Out Loud

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[00:00:02.65] PRESENTER 1: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher and university educator, founder of mentoring and action.com, and author of four best selling professional books for teachers.

[00:00:17.24] She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom. In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy.

[00:00:34.88] The Teacher to Teacher podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

[00:00:48.83] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Welcome to season three of the Teacher to Teacher podcast. I am your host, Carol Pelletier Radford. And I'm thrilled to be part of a conversation with two very experienced educators.

[00:01:02.90] The theme for season three is based on the book I wrote titled, Teaching with Light: Ten Lessons for Finding Wisdom, Balance and Inspiration. Each of the 10 episodes for this season mirror the 10 lessons in the book. And today's episode is less than 8, "Always Be Brave."

[00:01:26.06] And I have two very brave guests with me today. And I'm happy to have Dennis and Shawn with me. And I'm going to have each of the guests introduce themselves and tell me what you're doing right now in the education field. And then maybe a little backstory of how you kind of ended up here. So, Shawn, welcome. Introduce yourself.

[00:01:52.77] SHAWN THOMAS: Thank you so much, Carol. Hi, my name is Shawn Thomas. I am a longtime educator. This is my 28 year of teaching all in the same district, the largest district in Georgia. And I have taught kindergarten, second grade, third grade.

[00:02:08.58] But the majority of my career has been teaching multilingual learners in an elementary school, so K through 5. And I'm currently the lead ML teacher, ML stands for multilingual learner, in my school building.

[00:02:25.90] I got started teaching-- I wanted to be a teacher since I was 13 years old when I went to visit my mom in New York-- my mom, my aunt in New York because they were still in school. And I went to help her with her kindergartners and said, this is what I want to do with my life. And so ever since then, I've just been doing it, and I love it.

[00:02:45.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And it sounds like you were one of the many that of our listeners is there's several groups of people. Like, I always wanted to be a teacher. Like, I was the same way, playing with my dolls and bossing all my siblings around.

[00:03:02.10] And then there's this whole group of people that are teachers like, I never thought of being a teacher, and I ended up teaching. And how did this happen? So thank you for sharing my story, which is I always wanted to be a teacher.

[00:03:17.37] All right, Dennis, your turn. Introduce yourself. What are you doing? How did you get into education? What's your little teacher story?

[00:03:25.86] DENNIS SHIRLEY: OK, let's go back. So, Shawn, you said 13. I think I'm around 12. I've done the magic of education. My sixth grade teacher, Mr. Levine, decided that he would teach his sixth graders Albert Einstein's theory of relativity, a completely madcap expedition.

[00:03:45.70] He was a first year teacher. And that wasn't significant in and of itself. What was significant was he tried to introduce us to the idea that time and space were related and space could speed up and slow down. He said, even time could slow down so much that maybe it would stop.

[00:04:04.26] OK, so I was 12, and this is where Jean Piaget called the stage of formal operations categories and touch things and figure out the world. And this guy gave me an incredible gift, an incredible gift. He let me argue with him.

[00:04:20.62] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Whoa.

[00:04:21.96] DENNIS SHIRLEY: I said to him, Mr. Levine, there's no way that time can stop. It is the nature of time that it cannot stop. And not only did he let me argue with him in class, but he let me stay. We must have stayed for about an hour after school where I argued that time could not stop.

[00:04:39.43] Now I've learned later on, if you look it up on Google, the expansion of the universe and time is slowing down. It's still expanding, but it's slowing down. And astrophysicists will tell you it could happen, right? It could. But that just lit a fire under me.

[00:04:55.55] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And you wanted to become a teacher because he allowed that to happen in junior high?

[00:05:02.03] DENNIS SHIRLEY: There were a bunch of teachers I had where I just--

[00:05:05.30] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:06.24] DENNIS SHIRLEY: --are the coolest person in the whole world. Now, this is very important for teachers out there. You don't have to kind of try and play up to your image of what your students might think would be a cool teacher.

[00:05:19.72] Like a lot of young people in high school, I was very confused. My father was in Vietnam part of the time. Protests were going on. Political leaders had been assassinated. It was a mess when I was in high school. But you get a few good teachers. They don't all have to be great.

[00:05:36.19] Some of them were just solid teachers. Some of them were terrible. But you get a few great ones. And then you're like, what is this adventure? I want to be part of this thing.

[00:05:45.34] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yay. Yay. And you-- so that seed was planted similar to what happened to Shawn. But you ended up as a professor. So tell us-- so this is Dennis Shirley, everyone. And Dennis is a research professor.

[00:06:03.67] So let's-- so what are you doing now? Like, that-- time stopped or didn't stop, and you're doing something now as an educator. What is that?

[00:06:13.12] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Yeah. Well, I just finished a book for Corwin with Andy Hargreaves. It's called The Age of Identity: Who Do Our Kids Think They Are and How Do We Help Them Belong?

[00:06:23.59] And I feel like my mind is just so full of ideas that I needed to take a break from teaching full-time because there was so much I still wanted to get down and communicate and be in dialogue with people. So right now, I'm in a little bit of an interlude.

[00:06:39.24] But I'm going to dive back into it once I've kind of got a few more big ideas. So being a professor is kind of fun because people pay you to think.

[00:06:49.36] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yay.

[00:06:51.80] DENNIS SHIRLEY: --student engagement written about well-being, written about identity. You kind of-- I try to be honest to what's happening in the schools and not just go in and say, here's what I'm interested in. Now, let me research it.

[00:07:03.09] I try to be much more like, what's going on, and what do you think is important in your building? And then let the educators and the students lead.

[00:07:11.02] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. And that really relates to what we're going to talk about today, which is bravery, courage. And in the book, Teaching with Light, one of the lesson is me telling teachers to always be brave.

[00:07:29.03] It's like we need to come from a place of bravery and be able to articulate our voices when we need to. And to do that, I'm hearing what you're saying, Dennis, you have to kind of pause, think. And we're paid to think too.

[00:07:47.07] Teachers-- we're always doers. But I think teachers in the classroom, in the front lines, part of that is thinking about what we want to do that supports our students. So, Shawn, when I say--

[00:08:02.73] SHAWN THOMAS: --Carol. Can I--

[00:08:03.69] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, go ahead.

[00:08:05.16] SHAWN THOMAS: --Dennis said that I think actually goes along with that. You talked about how your teachers are very different. And I think one of the bravest things a new teacher can do is to be themselves.

[00:08:14.55] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you.

[00:08:15.76] SHAWN THOMAS: You don't have to be the idea of what you see on Pinterest, on TikTok, on Instagram. Just be who you are. And that's one of the bravest things a brand new teacher can do.

[00:08:27.37] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you for underscoring that. And it's really-- it's nerve-wracking. Beginning teachers, I work with a lot of beginning teachers, are very nervous. And once I had the opportunity to do a video to interview students, and I set--

[00:08:44.83] --the question was, what advice do you have for your beginning teachers? And the first thing that all the students said was don't be so nervous. We're just humans. Because the teacher would try to come in and be the fake cool teacher like Dennis was talking about.

[00:09:03.25] And the kids can see right through it, for one thing. And so thank you for saying that. So what's always be brave mean to you in addition to that? What else comes up for you, Shawn?

[00:09:18.43] SHAWN THOMAS: So to me, always being brave means choosing those battles and standing up for them. And so as a teacher of multilingual learners, I've had to do that often in my career. So I'll tell you a story. I had a principal.

[00:09:36.64] I'm going to call him Mr. M. And the state and the district has a way of how they fund support and services for our multilingual learner students. And what I had found over the course of my career is that getting the most funding was not necessarily the best way to provide services.

[00:09:58.63] So one of the times I had to be brave was I had to go to my principal and say, I understand about FTE and funding. However, these are children. And these are people first. And we have to remember that we have someone's child here. They have entrusted us to do what's best for this child.

[00:10:20.98] He was not happy with that. I had to give up part of my planning time, but I did that in order to make a space where my newcomer students were getting support that they needed. So that's what bravery means to me, is choosing those battles. Choose that hill you're going to die on, and stand up even if your voice is shaking--

[00:10:44.72] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right.

[00:10:45.88] SHAWN THOMAS: --for the students in front of you.

[00:10:47.56] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. And that's that pause that Dennis was talking about. You have to pause and think and choose. It's not every single one.

[00:10:55.44] SHAWN THOMAS: Yes.

[00:10:56.31] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What is it? And what can we do? I always have-- the beginning teachers are very nervous about that, though. What advice do you have-- like, first year teacher is going to say, I am not going to say something to my principal the first year because I don't even really know what I'm doing.

[00:11:18.64] How do you organize that if you're early-- in your early career stage? What advice would you have related to-- how is that bravery going to show up?

[00:11:30.73] SHAWN THOMAS: Well, I think, and you actually mentioned this in your book is to ask for support. So if there is something that you see that you aren't sure if that's the best way, go to a veteran teacher. Have that trusted person. It could be a grade manager.

[00:11:44.79] It could be a coach in your building, could be an assistant principal, and just ask questions. Can you tell me why it's done this way? Has it been done other ways? Is there a reasoning?

[00:11:54.75] And then if you find that you have an idea, I'll tell people, all they can tell you is no, but you can always go and say, I have an idea. Can I try this? That may be a way that, that teacher can show bravery.

[00:12:07.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I like that.

[00:12:07.85] SHAWN THOMAS: Is just to ask.

[00:12:08.65] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And then the mentoring, so that's a leadership-- that's emerging into teacher leadership. We talked about this with my guests on episode seven about emerging teacher leaders with early career teachers, with the teachers coming in that they don't have to wait for 20 years to be leaders.

[00:12:26.81] And part of being a leader is that voice and being brave to speak up and come up with a solution too. It sounds like you had a solution. Like, you are proposing something. Yes, you gave up your planning time.

[00:12:40.69] I probably hear listeners going, ah, I don't really want to give up my planning time to do this, but sometimes, that's what it takes to resolve the issue. So being brave and being part of the solution, not just identifying the problem and bringing it to the principal doesn't always work, is what I'm hearing you say.

[00:13:02.35] SHAWN THOMAS: Absolutely. Always come up with an idea of a solution. And they may not take it. But if you have a concern and you've kind of done your research and figured out why it's like that, come up with some ideas and always be willing to share it because that shows that teacher leadership.

[00:13:18.52] And as you said, you don't have to have been in the field for 20 years. You can be a brand new person. You've got new ideas, share them.

[00:13:25.30] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, but have the courage to share it. And I think what you're saying, which I love, is that you don't have to do that alone. You find your mentor to be the advocate with you, just as what we're saying is we're being advocates for our students.

[00:13:44.50] But the beginning teachers need someone to go with them to the principal, not by themselves--

[00:13:50.97] SHAWN THOMAS: Yes.

[00:13:51.73] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: --and maybe co-create the solution. And sometimes, like you're saying, that solution isn't the solution, but it ripples. It's brainstorming. It ripples into something else. Dennis, what do you think about what we're saying? Does this relate to you?

[00:14:06.28] You'll have a chance to share your bravery story, but what's your reaction to what we're saying?

[00:14:12.43] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Oh, gosh, on so many levels, I think that what Shawn was just saying is, and you too, Carol, is we have to pay attention to the language that we use.

[00:14:22.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:14:23.61] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Administrators are busy people, and they don't like getting yelled at by anybody, but they actually get yelled at a fair amount.

[00:14:30.56] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, they do.

[00:14:31.90] DENNIS SHIRLEY: You asked this really good question about bravery. I think one of the bravest things I ever heard a teacher say, and this was in the Rio Grande Valley in Texas, where I did a lot of work for a number of years with community organizing for school improvement. The teacher said an angry parent is an opportunity.

[00:14:49.21] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, I love that.

[00:14:51.19] DENNIS SHIRLEY: That's actually quite courageous because it says that the teacher understands that the parents don't really what goes on in schools often. They don't understand what's going on with test scores. And you can do this, and you can't do that and pull ins and push outs and computer assisted instruction, and et cetera.

[00:15:10.81] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right.

[00:15:11.61] DENNIS SHIRLEY: --it all. But their child might come home crying and really upset and not able to sleep. And so I think that when educators are able to flip things like that, that actually, the parents we should be worried about are the parents who don't care.

[00:15:27.54] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. Right.

[00:15:29.05] DENNIS SHIRLEY: That's what we should worry about, apathy. Kids who are really neglected. So I guess that's just kind of one example of bravery. And then. I'm not sure if this is an example of my bravery, but it's an example, I hope, of my responsiveness.

[00:15:48.73] I was in a meeting many years ago at Boston College, and the professors were all presenting their research and their methodologies and their findings.

[00:15:55.40] And a woman named Pat Donatelli, who was a cluster leader in the Boston public schools at the time said at the end of all these presentations, she said, look, these are fascinating research questions, brilliant methodologies. I can't understand them. Conclusion seem interesting.

[00:16:09.68] But as a school based educator, your questions are not our questions. And that gave me a headache for about six weeks. And then out of that, I thought, she's right, and I need to kind of go back and work with classroom teachers.

[00:16:25.34] I need to go back into the schools where cheek by jowl with classroom teachers and learn from them. And then this is something I'd like to encourage teachers to think about. Rarely, did I ever have any teachers come after me and say, I really need your best thinking on this.

[00:16:43.43] I really need you to kind of work with me around this. So when we think of that community supporting teachers, it's good to have those mentor teachers, good to have those leaders. But there's higher education faculty that could be pulled on also so that teaching is not so lonely as can feel sometimes.

[00:17:02.72] You know that feeling when you're in the classroom and you have a runner in your class. The child's left the classroom. What do you do? You go over. You pick up the phone, and you call down to the administration office. Nobody picks up. What do you do?

[00:17:16.92] You go to the teacher in the next room over. You say, I'm missing Jackie or whoever it might be. Teacher says, I'm sorry, man. I really got my hands full. What do you do, right? Are really tough, tough issues that teachers face. And you're legally liable for, right, that class even when others aren't there.

[00:17:38.04] So you're in a very vulnerable position. What I think is really beautiful about what you two are offering through your podcasts is you're offering a community.

[00:17:49.49] A community where people can talk about those really, really hard things where you do need to have some courage and sometimes just to go into the building the next day after something outrageous had happened. And maybe you messed up, right?

[00:18:04.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right.

[00:18:05.72] DENNIS SHIRLEY: --to say, I'm sorry, I shouted at you. I really did something out of turn. And courageous teachers can say that to a whole class.

[00:18:15.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, Dennis, for underscoring that and showing that bravery and courage, it's ongoing. What are you-- Shawn, what's your reaction to some of the things that you just heard Dennis talk about, the research and being a his education experiences from that perspective?

[00:18:34.18] And I worked in higher ed for 20 years as well. But I always felt like I was a classroom teacher the whole time. But what do you think, Shawn?

[00:18:43.46] SHAWN THOMAS: I think I really like what you're saying, Dennis, about how you want to partner more with teachers. I graduated back in the '90s. I've been around for a while. And it seemed very separate. And what we learned in school didn't really transfer.

[00:18:58.50] I felt like as a beginning teacher, the things I learned were so philosophical that I didn't know what I was doing. And so I think what Dennis is saying about how we need to kind of make sure that we are-- that in the colleges, the professors are actually doing-- answering the questions that the teachers on the ground need.

[00:19:18.53] I think that is really important. I'm so glad to hear that now. And what I see from the newer teachers coming out, they are having that kind of experience. So that's the first thing which I feel like is just so much better for our teachers coming out. They are going to be better prepared coming into those schools.

[00:19:38.55] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you for under-- and I want to point out something, Dennis, that from my experience when we were collaborating, when I was at Boston College leading the student teaching program, I found you to be so brave in that you co-taught a university master's course with the first grade teacher.

[00:20:00.68] Like, when I put out this idea, this crazy idea to all the professors in the education department, and I remember this, saying, let's get closer to those teacher issues.

[00:20:13.09] Who wants to co-teach or invite even guest speakers from the classroom to do what Shawn's talking about, talk about the scenarios that are actually happening and put them in the context of the research and the philosophy, which I think are very valuable?

[00:20:29.44] And in my memory, Dennis, I think you were the only professor who did it. So what was that experience like co-teaching? Because you're very philosophical, if I may say so. And you worked with a first grade teacher. Why did you say yes?

[00:20:49.16] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Well, what are we even in this field for, right? Life is short. Life is fleeting and very short. And we don't know how long any of us have, right?

[00:21:03.68] So you kind of have to figure out-- I mean, higher education is getting more and more, I'm just going to speak bluntly, messed up because now there's all these ways of measuring professors productivity, which has to do with how often other people cite their research.

[00:21:17.61] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. Right.

[00:21:19.87] DENNIS SHIRLEY: But meanwhile, you have these student teachers right in front of you. You have them going out into the schools. And, Carol, I have to say, OK, maybe I had some courage, but you had stamina.

[00:21:31.71] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I did have stamina. I didn't take no for an answer. Right.

[00:21:38.26] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Quarter of a century. How do you get a higher education faculty excited about working cheek by jowl with classroom teachers? You must be the world's biggest masochist.

[00:21:51.52] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: To try to bring the partners together. Well, but you did it. What did you most enjoy about teaching, co-teaching with a first grade teacher?

[00:22:00.21] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Well--

[00:22:01.40] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What stood out?

[00:22:02.85] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Look, I'm curious.

[00:22:06.66] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, you were-- OK.

[00:22:08.68] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Maybe part of bravery could be having the humility to say that you don't know everything.

[00:22:14.34] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: All right. Yeah, you don't. Yeah.

[00:22:16.93] DENNIS SHIRLEY: And I mean, first grade teachers are so great. One of the things, I know we're going to be getting to the practical stuff in a little bit, but I'm very lucky. I've been able to do research on a lot of different places. I was working in Ontario, Canada.

[00:22:30.53] This comes up in the book on well-being that I wrote with Andy, Well-Being in Schools, with Andy Hargreaves. Think of the difference, if you're a teacher or if you're a kid, or if you're a parent with referring to students who have low test scores as marker students--

[00:22:48.40] --or bubble kids on the one hand, or referring to them as students of wonder or students of mystery on the other hand. We don't know what's going on in their minds. We really don't know. And so a practical thing for all of us to do is to review our language.

[00:23:06.50] What's the language-- what are the labels we're putting on our kids? And when you use a language-- I mean, it was so wonderful to listen to these teachers talk because they'd say, well, I have a wondering. There's something that's a mystery for me.

[00:23:22.12] And the language that we use can open up inquiry and exploration, or it can shut it down. And honestly, I think just-- I'm not that noble. I think I was getting a little bit bored with the self-imposed blinders that we put on in higher ed.

[00:23:38.23] And the other thing, Carol, is I've been working for a number of years in the schools before that team teaching happened. And this was really great because I started hiring the teachers to teach some of the higher ed classes on their own, and they started having the highest teaching evaluations.

[00:23:57.33] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, I forgot that you did that. Yes, we started hiring the teachers. They were teaching the reading course-- OK, Shawn, you got to weigh in on all this. What are you thinking about this collaboration that Dennis and I did years ago that I think we need to resurface with our listeners? What do you think?

[00:24:17.88] SHAWN THOMAS: That sounds amazing. I think that-- I really do think that because I used to want to be a professor for that reason because I wanted to go in and say this was what I got out of school, this is what I experienced, and I want to share that with teachers that are in pre-service.

[00:24:33.90] So what you're talking about is exactly that. And having-- when I went to school in Auburn University, we had adjunct professors who were current classroom teachers who came in. But I think even having--

[00:24:45.80] --instead of just having them teach a certain class and professor teach a class, that co-teaching model I think it would be amazing for so many students. But there was something that Dennis had said that had me think of something, and I was like, oh, I want to talk about that. And now it's--

[00:25:01.76] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It'll come back. If it comes back, bring it back. If it comes back, meant to be. We're going to shift a little bit. Thank you both for this very invigorating conversation that kind of goes in a lot of different ways about bravery.

[00:25:17.44] It's not just one incident. It's ongoing, just showing up. If you're beginning teacher, being brave to show up every day. If you're a professor, to reach out to schools and actually, let's do research on the questions that relate to what's really going on in schools.

[00:25:36.54] And then having classroom teachers reach out to the universities. So anybody listening, I hope our listeners will. If you're in a college town, if you have student teachers, I think we need to say, come in. Come in and help us.

[00:25:53.05] We need some research on this. We need some research on that. Oh, OK, Shawn, what do you think? What do you think?

[00:26:01.61] SHAWN THOMAS: So I was thinking when Dennis was talking about how we change the language and how we label students, and it made me think about how it's so important for teachers to have an assets-based approach.

[00:26:15.07] We no longer call our students English language learners because that's a deficit-based approach, saying what they're lacking. Now we want to call them multilingual learners because we're saying what they are bringing is an asset, and we are building and creating more assets for them. So I think that that's important as Dennis was talking about the labels we use.

[00:26:35.64] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:26:36.24] SHAWN THOMAS: Try to remember to have that asset-based approach, like you were saying, students of wonder, wondering what they're thinking instead of that they're not doing that. So I think that's important--

[00:26:46.37] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:26:47.37] SHAWN THOMAS: --all of our teachers--

[00:26:48.51] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: --that--

[00:26:49.14] SHAWN THOMAS: --to have an asset-based approach.

[00:26:51.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, and I didn't even think of that because I have a course that I help teacher with, and it's called ELL. Yeah, English Language Learner. And I never thought-- thank you, I'm going to change the course title.

[00:27:02.01] So this is-- but this is what happens when you have these kinds of conversations. It looks like one little thing, but that brings up the power of the words, which Dennis is into. So let's shift a bit.

[00:27:17.34] OK, our listeners are ready for some practical advice or some strategies from all of the wisdom, Dennis, all the writing, all the research. What do you have that you would like to share with the listeners that can make their day better or that they can use to forward their teaching experience in a successful way? What shows up for you?

[00:27:43.97] DENNIS SHIRLEY: So I'll just mention one thing that kind of came up for some of my freshman college students this year, and that is that a lot of them don't know why they're in the university and what they're doing.

[00:27:57.09] And they wanted to please their parents. They wanted to please their teachers. And now they're sitting here, and what on earth are they doing here? So students will say these kinds of things, right, kind of across the-- it's a human thing. What am I doing here? Why? What matters here?

[00:28:14.33] So you can do a very simple little exercise and to kind of interrupt what you're doing or build it into a lesson, and it's called have your students write purpose statements. Say, what's your purpose with your life? What do you want to do? And then my students will challenge me.

[00:28:31.09] I teach a lot of football players sitting in the back of the classroom who like to put me in the hot seat, right? So what's your purpose, right? And so my purpose is to improve the human condition through education and to love my friends and family, with all my might. Two things. Very simple, but I didn't get it from a box. Right?

[00:28:55.85] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, you got it from your heart. That's a heart-centered statement. Yes.

[00:28:59.99] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Everybody has to spend time working on their purpose statement, right? And if teachers can do this kind of thing, and this is very much research supported, you get the motivations going again, right? Say, you just have minor classroom management issues.

[00:29:23.14] Say, well, wait a minute, what are you here for, right? Let's go back and look at your purpose statement. And really, it's very hard. And so then the momentum starts coming from them, and it's an opportunity to get to know the students kind of at any age or any grade level. So, Shawn, you're teaching first graders or kindergartners?

[00:29:46.86] SHAWN THOMAS: Right now, I'm teaching multilingual learners. And I particularly work with-- I typically work with fourth and fifth grade. But I have taught all the grade levels. Yes.

[00:29:55.33] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Yeah. And I mean, at every level, kids are kind of-- I mean, in kindergarten, that's the cutest, right, because they'll just kind of blurt out anything and just make your day with some wonderful little comment.

[00:30:10.86] I was one kindergarten class, and the teacher talking with the kids about things that they like to collect. And one kid says, I know what you like to collect. And the teacher says, well, what? What do I like to collect? You like to collect children.

[00:30:29.92] [LAUGHTER]

[00:30:33.04] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: As they all have-- yeah, I love it.

[00:30:35.47] DENNIS SHIRLEY: It's been very perceptive.

[00:30:36.40] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, the students. And the teachers too, though, need the purpose. It's the what's your why. We say, why are you here? Why did you choose to become a teacher? Shawn shared, like, when she made the decision.

[00:30:51.71] But I feel like we all revisit that over and over. OK, why am I still here? Why am I still supporting teachers? Because I love it, and I can see a need for us to have these conversations. And if that's what I can do, that's my purpose right now.

[00:31:12.08] Shawn, what's your practical message that either builds on Dennis' or how are you going to share with us what your wisdom?

[00:31:25.43] SHAWN THOMAS: Well, going back to what Dennis said is I actually have a mission statement that I write out every morning. So I'm wondering if that's something that maybe would help some of our students, college students who are saying, why am I here, kind think about what is your purpose.

[00:31:42.76] And it's a sentence. And I write it every morning to remind me of what-- the type of person, how I want to be in this world. So that would be a strategy, possibly. But what I was thinking is, is that every year, you're going to have something that you feel probably unsure about.

[00:32:01.16] And when you're first teaching, it's going to be a lot of different things. So what I would say is pick one area that you really want to work on and improve. You can't do everything. And sometimes you feel like I have to be the expert at everything, or I can't ask for help.

[00:32:18.83] But choose the one thing that you really want to get better on and have a focus on that because that's how you will improve and change over time. If you try to do everything, you're not going to be good at anything. That would be my practical strategy.

[00:32:32.63] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I'd like you to share with the audience your hobby or interest in having your own podcast, which I have been a guest a couple times, and I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

[00:32:46.62] I was with beginning teacher each time, and I really enjoyed that conversation. But tell us the title, how this happened. Let's hear this story.

[00:32:59.10] SHAWN THOMAS: Sure. So over on, formerly known as Twitter, now X, there is a Tuesday night edchat. It's #EdChat where they just talk about education issues and topics. And so I was one of the moderators for the chat, and I was the co-host of the podcast that followed the chat.

[00:33:21.80] And then as the only moderator and co-host at the time who was actually still teaching in the classroom, the producers of the band Radio Network, which is where you can find the podcast, lots of different podcasts on education, they asked me if I would be willing to host a--

[00:33:36.47] --podcast called We Just Want to Teach, which gives teaching strategies, stories, tips and tricks just really to help provide some information and some inspiration to teachers.

[00:33:49.47] And as you said, Carol, you're typically paired with the new teacher because what I found was it's great having that person who's a veteran, and that person who's new because after 28 years or 27 years, I can remember some things.

[00:34:03.22] But it's nice to have someone who's brand new and to have those questions that we can answer and support them with. So that's how I got into that.

[00:34:11.33] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And you're still doing it--

[00:34:13.02] SHAWN THOMAS: And I'm still doing it.

[00:34:14.10] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You're doing the fall. And OK, we'll be in touch. I've got some ideas for you. Teaching with Light.

[00:34:20.41] SHAWN THOMAS: Yes, ma'am. I love it.

[00:34:22.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my God. The time has gone by so quickly. I love this. So I have just a few easy questions for the end of the show. Everybody likes to know, like, OK, you two are pretty busy people. You have a podcast. You're writing books, blah, blah, blah.

[00:34:38.01] Well, how do you stay inspired, motivated, healthy, balanced, whatever you call it? Dennis, what do you do?

[00:34:45.16] DENNIS SHIRLEY: I dance.

[00:34:46.17] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You dance. Alone, or are you dancing with a partner? Tell me more. Ballroom dancing.

[00:34:53.74] DENNIS SHIRLEY: So I dance with my wife. I dance with my daughter. I dance with friends. But I started-- there's a fun movie. It's Richard Gere, Jennifer Lopez movie, Shall We Dance. And it's about a guy, like, stuck in his mid-career in Chicago, and he just starts taking dance classes.

[00:35:10.57] And a lot of us live in our heads, and the body is something for carrying the brain around in. But you kind get out on a dance floor, and I very good instructors. I go to Arthur Murray Dance Studio nearby here. They're all over the country.

[00:35:26.91] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Fun.

[00:35:27.91] DENNIS SHIRLEY: You get out there, and it's so funny because I'll tell many people, well, I'm going to these dance classes and people say, well, I'd love to do that, but I know how to dance.

[00:35:38.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That's why you got to go to class.

[00:35:41.74] DENNIS SHIRLEY: So you can start working on-- there's a lot of Latin dances that are very popular now so salsa, merengue, bachata.

[00:35:50.36] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Ooh, I can see you. Yes.

[00:35:52.56] DENNIS SHIRLEY: --all of those things, then waltz, if you want, a jitterbug. You got all kinds of different things. But I think that for me, the connection, the human connection without saying a word, but just floating across that dance floor is just sublime.

[00:36:13.49] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it. I love to dance. My husband and I have taken lessons. We're not very good. And that's a judgment. But we just love just going to the lessons. And I think we're getting better. And I love the foxtrot. And we haven't gotten into the tango. That's a little-- what's your favorite dance, Dennis?

[00:36:35.90] DENNIS SHIRLEY: I'd say--

[00:36:36.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Do you have a favorite?

[00:36:37.47] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Yeah. Well, the ones that I'm having the most fun with right now would be bachata, the rumba, and the waltz.

[00:36:44.88] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, the rumba. Yes, I love that. Yes. All right. What do you think-- so what are you doing to stay inspired, Shawn?

[00:36:54.00] SHAWN THOMAS: So I go into my basement, and that's where I work out. I get in daily, joyful movement, and it can be different things. But I go into the basement by myself. Sometimes my puppy comes in the room and--

[00:37:06.97] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, what's your puppy-- what's your puppy's name?

[00:37:09.62] SHAWN THOMAS: Miles. He's a miniature Schnauser. We call him a little terroriser. He likes no one, but my husband and me. He tolerates our son--

[00:37:17.38] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my God.

[00:37:19.18] SHAWN THOMAS: --terrible. But I just go there and 30 minutes. And I just-- I take care of myself, and I just decompress--

[00:37:27.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And move. And moving.

[00:37:28.91] SHAWN THOMAS: And moving your body moving. Yes.

[00:37:31.16] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That's so interesting that you both move, that our bodies help us to connect. So one thing I do that I've shared in my other episodes is when I became the yoga teacher, I learned how to do a hand mudras like yoga for your hands.

[00:37:46.49] And I discovered that just pausing for a few two minutes could re-- that I didn't need 30 minutes. Like, I want to do that too. But the one that we'll put into the description for this podcast so that you all can see it is a two minute mudra called what is-- a mudra of well-being.

[00:38:11.63] So it kind of fits with this conversation, and it's moving the negative thoughts away. So sometimes we have to literally move that to have courage and to just get out of our heads, which sometimes, our minds will talk us out of being brave very quickly.

[00:38:31.72] So I hope you and our listeners will take a look at that. All right. We're winding down. And the next to last question is I want to talk about change. Dick Elmore had this prompt, I used to think, and now I think. I want our listeners and our beginning teachers to know that we do change over time.

[00:38:52.37] We don't have to come into the profession with one idea, and then that's it. So, Shawn, what did you used to think and now what do you think?

[00:39:02.92] SHAWN THOMAS: I used to think that having parental support was good. I would take it. But now I know that it takes more than just me and the parents. It takes the entire village. That means your counselors. That means your teammates on your grade level. It could be community members.

[00:39:20.98] It really makes a difference when you have that whole community that's coming around our students and us as teachers, so that we're all going to be doing our best. We can't do it by ourselves. We need to have that support.

[00:39:35.62] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. And Dennis, I used to think and now I think.

[00:39:40.59] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Oh, I think I used to think that educational change was a lot easier than it turns out to be.

[00:39:45.70] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah.

[00:39:46.53] SHAWN THOMAS: Facts.

[00:39:47.75] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah.

[00:39:48.87] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Right. I used to kind of think, well, here's what the research says about multilingual learners or kids with dyslexia or these things, and now we just need to go do that. But I see that it's more complex than that. And I see all of the human beings who are involved.

[00:40:06.78] So I try and draw inspiration from thinking, what have we got in our public school system in the US? About 50 million kids, I think, last time I checked in the 16,000 school districts. It's kind of amazing if you can kind of think about it, that I know we have an enrollment crisis.

[00:40:24.54] We have all kinds of issues right now. But we've been through a lot, especially in these last years. I'm thinking of COVID in particular. And yet still, people get up in the morning. Kids get up. They go to school. They're curious. They want to learn. They want to make something of themselves.

[00:40:40.38] And so I think I'm much less into what I think we should do now and more curious about these generations keep on changing.

[00:40:55.61] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, they do. So being open to that. So what do you want to celebrate, Dennis? Kind of in that vein, what do you want to celebrate around education?

[00:41:07.29] DENNIS SHIRLEY: I celebrate the teachers who somehow managed to teach online during the pandemic, who now are trying to figure out AI, who are dealing with kids from all different kinds of backgrounds, all different kinds of personalities and still manage to kind of get up there every day--

[00:41:26.53] --and do it with so much love and dedication and wisdom. So many classical virtues. So I draw a lot of inspiration from the people that are listening to this podcast. They don't have to do this. They could do something else, but they want to improve their minds and are curious about what others are thinking. And all of you.

[00:41:49.49] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. That's beautiful. Shawn, the last word. What would you like to celebrate as we close out our Teacher to Teacher podcast episode 8?

[00:42:00.79] SHAWN THOMAS: I would just love to share-- I want to piggyback on what Dennis said is that the way I started with EdChat was I was just listening to the podcast with my son on the way to school. And for the teachers that are listening to podcasts who are picking up those PDs, who are taking that initiative, I think we want to celebrate them.

[00:42:21.41] But we also want to remember that there are some people who feel so overwhelmed, they don't know where to begin. So maybe share that little thing that you have. Share EdChat. Share the Teacher to Teacher podcast. Share the book Teaching with Life-- with Light, not life, excuse me.

[00:42:39.02] Share the thing that you have found so that others can learn and be lifted up as well.

[00:42:46.69] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. And congratulations is in order. I know that you're stepping into a new leadership position. Just kind of say what that is so everybody can congratulate you.

[00:42:59.67] SHAWN THOMAS: Yes. So I'm currently a lead ML teacher, but I'm actually going to be moving into more of a coaching role. It's called a multilingual learner instructional specialist. And so I'm going to be going into a school that's what we call high density.

[00:43:14.34] They have a lot of multilingual learners in their building and really working with teachers to help support them by modeling lessons, by working with them on how to make sure that their lessons are accessible for students, that their assessments are actually accessible, and we can learn and see what our students actually know.

[00:43:33.75] So I'm really excited about the opportunity to work and hopefully impact more than just the students I see on my caseload, but all of the students in an entire elementary school.

[00:43:43.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So you'll be mentoring. You'll be doing teacher-- you'll be doing teacher leadership. You'll be-- your dream job.

[00:43:51.37] SHAWN THOMAS: It is my dream job.

[00:43:52.60] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It's your dream job. So I want to say to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to Teacher to Teacher with this exciting conversation where we're bridging the gap between higher education and K-12 schools.

[00:44:04.11] And I want to remind you to remember to stay inspired, stay healthy, and don't forget to share your good news. Thank you to the guests today. And I hope you will join us for episode 9, which is called "Dream Out Loud," so you can create your own dream jobs. Thanks, everyone.

[00:44:26.65] SHAWN THOMAS: Thank you.

[00:44:28.05] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:44:28.72] PRESENTER 1: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com.

[00:44:45.41] Please leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.

[00:44:58.94] PRESENTER 2: Come explore Corwin's free new teacher toolkit and resources. We've curated these resources based on extensive research from teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran teacher, find ready to go teaching tools at corwin.com today.