Giving Students the Tools They Need for You to Step Back

Series 1 Teacher to Teacher Podcast

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[00:00:03.10] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher and university educator, founder of mentoringinaction.com, and author of four bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom.

[00:00:23.89] In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The teacher to teacher podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you keep you inspired and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

[00:00:49.06] TORI BACHMAN: Hello. Welcome to the Teacher to Teacher podcast, sharing our wisdom with our host Carol Radford. I am Tori Bachman, a Corwin editor and co-organizer of this podcast, which we've created for teachers at all levels who are searching for practical wisdom that they can use in their classrooms.

[00:01:06.63] We believe we're all constantly learning and we're learning together. To share their wisdom today, we have two fabulous teacher guests, Sandy Brower and Maria Walther. I'll introduce them both to you now. Sandy Brower is a certified positive education, I'm sorry, certified positive educator and trainer through the Center for Positive Education and serves on the executive committee for the International Positive Education Consortium.

[00:01:34.79] Sandy has coordinated youth leadership summits and champion of character banquets to promote and support character education in her area schools. Sandy facilitates flourishing and resiliency skills workshops for adolescents, supporting students in becoming the best versions of themselves. She is an educator who is featured in Carol's recent book titled, When I Started Teaching, I Wish I Had Known, Weekly Wisdom for Beginning Teachers. Hi, Sandy. Thank you for talking with us today.

[00:02:05.55] SANDRA BROWER: Hi, Tori. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and it's such a pleasure to be joining everybody and have the opportunity to talk about teachers and how we can work together.

[00:02:18.53] TORI BACHMAN: Great, thank you. Also joining us is Maria Walther. Maria is a teacher, author, literacy consultant, and picture book enthusiast with over 34 years of experience teaching first grade. Currently she partners with teachers in their classrooms and inspires her colleagues through engaging professional learning experiences.

[00:02:40.49] The educators Maria works with say time and again that what they appreciate most about her is her focus on joyful, realistic approaches toward classroom instruction. Maria is the author of several professional books, including two Corwin bestsellers, The Ramped-Up Read Aloud and Shake Up Shared Reading. Hi, Maria. Thank you for being here.

[00:03:02.90] MARIA WALTHER: Thanks, Tori. So excited to be here. And so nice to meet you, Sandy. I can't wait to learn more about your work.

[00:03:09.45] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah, me too.

[00:03:10.86] TORI BACHMAN: So we've all really been looking forward to this conversation. Sandy and Maria just met for the first time today, so we're really looking forward to the connections that they make. And I am going to turn this over to Carol. Thank you both.

[00:03:23.53] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, Tori. And thank you all our listeners who have tuned in to hear the Teacher to Teacher podcast. So what I love about this podcast is that we dedicate intentional conversations to teachers who are currently in the classroom or who have been in the classroom and are still contributing their wisdom to the profession. So I'm just excited.

[00:03:51.34] To get us started, let's just begin with a short summary of your journey into teaching, why you chose to become teachers, and how you ended up where you are now. So Sandy, why did you decide to teach? And what did you teach? And just give me a little background.

[00:04:14.98] SANDRA BROWER: Oh my goodness, yeah. Oh, well, honestly, I came into teaching a little late in life. I have four children and was a stay at home mom. And I decided I needed to bring in some extra money to help supplement our family income. So I took a job at the school where my children were attending and I was a teacher aide actually for several years.

[00:04:43.65] And in that time I came to see and observe that a lot of the kids were struggling with lack of confidence, some anxiety issues, relationship issues, just different issues that they didn't seem to be able to find answers for. So I decided to then go back to school.

[00:05:08.55] I went back, I got my bachelor's degree in psychology and a master's degree in health education. So that's where I wanted to focus on whole health of the child.

[00:05:20.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that it came right from your own life and your own family. And you taught health, or are you teaching health now, or are--

[00:05:31.22] SANDRA BROWER: No, I'm not teaching it now. I have taught health, a couple of years I've taught health and then I also did a little bit of substitute teaching, long-term substitute positions.

[00:05:44.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And now you're a--

[00:05:45.61] SANDRA BROWER: I got a little sidetracked.

[00:05:47.26] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, yes, as many people who are listening. And then you now have embraced this positive education focus with character and values. Just say a bit about that transition from that idea to now. And I know you're going to share a story, but how did you physically-- did you go to school? Did you take a program? What happened there? Connect the dots.

[00:06:16.31] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah. Well, while I was in school I ran across this positive psychology. It's a new field in psychology and it's all about the being sciences. And I really got hooked on it and I wanted to integrate a lot of it into my health curriculum.

[00:06:34.18] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK, that makes sense.

[00:06:35.68] SANDRA BROWER: That's the direction I went, yeah. And then while I was working on my master's degree I got involved with the academy for character education and started integrating all of that together.

[00:06:46.91] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And we'll hear more about that, I'll ask you later, we will. So Maria, you always wanted to be a teacher or how did you end up in the classroom teaching first grade--

[00:06:56.87] MARIA WALTHER: First, go ahead.

[00:06:57.92] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: First grade for 34 years, wow.

[00:07:01.49] MARIA WALTHER: Yeah, so I wanted to be a first grade teacher since first grade. And so this is my 38th year.

[00:07:08.85] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Love it.

[00:07:09.11] MARIA WALTHER: I know. Since first grade always that was the only thing I put on my resume, first grade teacher, and I got very lucky. I did my student teaching with a woman who had taught first grade for 25 years. And we did all of our planning and teaching together during my student teaching experience and then I got the job in the classroom next to hers.

[00:07:29.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my God, I have goosebumps. That's crazy.

[00:07:32.87] MARIA WALTHER: Oh, wait, you're going to have more goosebumps.

[00:07:34.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, no.

[00:07:36.74] MARIA WALTHER: The two rooms had no wall between them.

[00:07:40.16] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Open classroom.

[00:07:41.87] MARIA WALTHER: So I taught next to a woman who had taught first grade for 25 years and was able to listen to everything that she said. And we did all our plans together and we collaborated. And so what I learned from that experience was the importance of collaboration and having that thought partner, and it just was an amazing experience.

[00:08:04.38] So I've carried that through my entire career. I've always had a team that I've planned with, we called ourselves the Tuesday night team. We planned together for 25 years in first grade. And now that I'm no longer in the classroom I still collaborate with one of those teammates. She's now teaching kindergarten, and we still talk, and I go to her classroom every week. So we've been collaborating now for 30 years.

[00:08:27.74] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. So you're a legacy teacher. So you just recently retired. So I am creating this new concept that retired teachers, we're not calling them that anymore, it's legacy teachers. And that we all need to continue to network because I'm a retired teacher, I retired from the classroom and then went to higher ed, and we all have our own paths. But that's the legacy work that you're talking about, that collaboration, and that listening to each other and the co-planning, and the sharing of the wisdom, you got to experience that.

[00:09:04.01] And I know there are some listeners going, oh, I wish I had that because that's the truest form of mentoring and modeling with the best experience and not just always starting over every year with new ideas, let's just take the best of everything and keep sharing it. So thank you for that. So you really stayed right into the classroom, but you started writing. Can you just say when did the writing of your books overlay with the full time teaching?

[00:09:39.29] MARIA WALTHER: Well, I earned my doctorate and wrote a dissertation. And then after the dissertation the people that were on my committee invited me to co-write a textbook, a college reading textbook, something I would not advise. It was a six-year process, very long process. But in it I met, again, some wonderful writing partners and so we started to write professional books.

[00:10:05.90] So I moved from writing the dissertation in the textbook to writing professional books. And so that Was-- I got my doctorate in 1998. So I have told-- Tori knows this, I have had a writing deadline since 1998.

[00:10:24.35] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. Oh, my God, well, I got my doctorate in 1996. And it's interesting you do remember the exact year that you finish it. And I remember my advisor saying, just get it done. I want it to be good, I want to have a good message. And he's like, the best dissertation is a done dissertation, it's just like get it done. And that was the best advice because it motivated me to not get sidetracked and all this writing that was wordsmithing, and editing, and all of that.

[00:11:02.35] So congratulations for staying in the professional world after finishing the doctorate and keeping your message out there. So two different journeys, but I think you have some common interests around sharing wisdom for the benefit of students, which is really why we're here at this podcast.

[00:11:25.12] So let's transition into thinking back to your time in the classroom, what changed you? I always like to know those pivotal goosebump moments when something significant happens that we never forget like I just didn't forget that dissertation conversation. When you don't forget something, and it doesn't have to be challenging, it could be like a success thing, it's just something that we build our perspective and stance as teachers out of this learning that happened. So Sandy, something like that happened to you? Share your story.

[00:12:10.61] SANDRA BROWER: Oh, yes, definitely, definitely. I remember distinctly I had one young lady, she was ninth grade at the time. Every day that she came into my classroom she complained nonstop about her math teacher, how strict she was, the stupid things she said, it was nonstop.

[00:12:34.05] And the interesting thing about this young lady is she tended to be one of those students who was always late to class, in the principal's office a little more often than you'd like them to be, you know the type. But anyways, she would come in and she would constantly complain about her teacher.

[00:12:54.51] And so one day she came in and I and she started and said, hey. I said let's take a breath for a second. And do me a favor, I'm going to challenge you to go and talk to that teacher and find three things about that teacher that you like, go talk to her and find three things about that teacher that you could like about her.

[00:13:16.62] So about a week or so later she come into the classroom and she was all smiles and just talking about this teacher, and what these things that she did, and the interest that she had. And it just totally changed her perspective on the teacher and I think it did help her ability to then enjoy the classroom and the school a little bit more, being in school a little bit more.

[00:13:46.70] So it was just one of those instances that it just occurred to me that she just needed a different perspective, she just needed another way to look at something or somebody to change her whole thinking, her whole line of thinking.

[00:14:04.02] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So you gave her the tool for her to actually contribute to her own learning in a different way?

[00:14:13.81] SANDRA BROWER: In a different way.

[00:14:14.59] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Where did you come up with that? Had you been doing that in your own life? Are you one of those see the good and everything?

[00:14:21.34] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah, I do. I always, yeah. When I meet people I like to look for the good in other people and other in the situations too because you can be in a not so happy situation, but you still have to look for the good in it or you get stuck in that mindset of negativity.

[00:14:42.22] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And that made a difference to that student. So you actually saw the result of your tool in action with a student who shifted. And then how did that affect your decision to keep teaching, or health, or you were in the classroom then? How did her reaction change to what you chose to do next in your career?

[00:15:07.96] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah, to begin with, it made me see the students a little bit differently because a lot of these kids you know they come off really tough, and hard to connect with, and mean, and so on, and so forth. And it just occurred to me that their behavior, it's communication, they're reacting to their situation and not knowing how to-- not having those skills to be able to handle life a little bit better.

[00:15:36.17] So I just became a lot more determined that I wanted to bring these types of skills into the classroom to help these kids. And then it just didn't end there, it went into I want to bring it into the schools, we need it in our schools.

[00:15:52.46] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And you spend a lot of time on that, in which I'm going to tease that out a little bit later, but let's hear Maria's defining significant learning experience and let's see what your life has brought you.

[00:16:10.04] MARIA WALTHER: Well, and I just want to talk about Sandy's for just a minute.

[00:16:13.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK, go ahead.

[00:16:14.36] MARIA WALTHER: What you did, Sandy, was you helped that child build a relationship. And I think that's what we, and I've heard you say this already, that's what's missing in schools, is that time to build relationships. And that's why love picture books and that read aloud experience because that helps to build a relationship, and a culture, and a classroom, but it also gives students tools like gave of ways to talk to other children and ways to interact.

[00:16:43.40] So my defining moment is about read aloud and it really is about a time when-- so I've always read aloud, I always read aloud a lot in my classroom. I actually kept a tally about how many times we read aloud. And this particular year I had a boy who was a student with autism and he had a lot of difficulty in the classroom.

[00:17:11.37] I often always said that I tended to get those students because I was able to build relationships and figure out what they needed because I was flexible and just thought outside the box sometimes. But so during read aloud because I kept a tally it was very difficult for him engaging in the read aloud, asking questions, it was very, very challenging. But I kept at it, and I kept telling, and I kept at it, and I kept telling.

[00:17:40.80] And it took about 300 read aloud experiences before this child was able to start to interact with his peers, interact with the story, but he did it. And from the 300th to the 600th that year, he was in it. Once he figured out that this was a place that he was comfortable, and he felt safe, and you know his peers were going to talk to him, it was just an amazing experience for him and for the rest of the children because then they started to see him as a contributor to that classroom environment.

[00:18:16.66] So that was the defining moment and when I really realized that the power of read aloud not only to help students as readers and writers, but to help them socially and emotionally.

[00:18:27.54] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So when you say read aloud, just for our teachers that are listening that are high school teacher because we have a k-12 and college audience listening what does that-- your students are sitting, the first grade students, you're reading a story aloud and they're sitting and listening to you either at their desk or on a mat or something cozy? And what is it that you wanted this one student to do? You had read 300 different times and that student just didn't engage or just didn't talk? Give me some more descriptors.

[00:19:06.06] MARIA WALTHER: OK so during a read aloud experience typically I prefer to have the students close by, so on the carpet or nearby. And the big part of interactive read aloud is interacting with your peers. So when I'm posing a question, it really isn't answering my question, it's turning and talking with your neighbor and having that conversation and in that way you're building relationships.

[00:19:30.01] So for this child that part, that relationship building that turning and talking was very difficult. So he could listen to the read aloud, but he just wasn't interacting either with--

[00:19:41.76] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So he couldn't turn to a partner and say, I liked the part that she said just now or any conversation?

[00:19:50.13] MARIA WALTHER: Yes, that was very, very challenging. And so it was just that modeling so I would pair him with different students.

[00:19:59.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK.

[00:20:00.45] MARIA WALTHER: And in finding the student that would be able to engage in that conversation, so there's a strategy, I would scaffold his conversation. So when it was time to turn and talk, I might come down on the floor and say, well, you know you might want to start with, OK, I'm wondering about this part of the book. What are you wondering? So providing language, putting that language into his vocabulary. So those are some of the strategies.

[00:20:27.75] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So he was teaching you to teach? So this is the college preparation program for teachers is to put the kids in front of us and then-- but you had to be aware enough to notice and to focus on him. So that's really a very insightful moment when you realized that you were going to make him your study.

[00:20:57.09] MARIA WALTHER: And I always say and I'm sure Sandy would agree that you learn the most from the students. And the students who are the toughest students, like this child, the young adult that you were talking about, are the students who you learn the absolute most from about being an educator. They teach you the skills that you-- I mean, you have to develop skills to meet their needs.

[00:21:18.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: But you as a teacher had to be in the moment that you could see the learning, so that's why these two stories and they relate, which is always interesting to me. They relate because why you had the pivotal moment, the significant moment is you allowed yourself to see what's missing was.

[00:21:42.36] So Sandy allowed herself to see this student is just complaining, but then it was like, what can I do? Every teacher might not do that. They'd be like just go away you're wrecking my day. And the same for you having the quiet student, a beginning teacher might not even have the skill set to know what to do, but it's an inquiry. So both of you were giving students the tools, you both were doing the tools so you could-- yes, go ahead, go ahead.

[00:22:20.04] MARIA WALTHER: Your key word there though is inquiry.

[00:22:22.32] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:22:23.07] MARIA WALTHER: Because as educators that's a big part of what we do, we're uncovering-- I think, I can't remember who said it. Behavior often is covering up something else. You said that, Sandy.

[00:22:38.03] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah, behavior is communication.

[00:22:40.05] MARIA WALTHER: Yes, so as educators, we're trying to peel back those layers to figure out what it is that they're trying to communicate and that does take time certainly, but time well spent.

[00:22:53.82] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: The patience. So what was the moment-- we call these the light bulb moments in teaching when we look and we're like he raised his hand or something, they are the big little things, I call them, because they're big, but it's like this little raiser, a small behavior. What was the indication that you saw that that student revealed or allowed himself to be comfortable talking to somebody else? Was there a particular--

[00:23:30.28] [INTERPOSING VOICES]

[00:23:31.88] Yeah, go ahead.

[00:23:32.99] MARIA WALTHER: What I began to see was he was able to have book-based conversations. So he was able to take what was happening in that book and then talk about that with his partner without the scaffolding. So it was when I was able to sit back.

[00:23:51.07] And like Sandy's story, you're hoping that this young adult does that with other people that they're having trouble with. So I think that that's what we're doing is we're providing those tools. As you said, Carol, we're providing tools, but then it's when they apply the tools without.

[00:24:09.91] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, on their own. So that's ultimately what we do as teachers, whatever we're teaching. I mean, it was ninth grade, first grade, I'm teaching preservice student teachers, it doesn't matter, but it's that awareness within us that these conversations, hopefully, as people are listening, will stop a moment and say, OK, so what's going on around me that I can influence because we just get going like machines and it's correct to the papers, and do this, and go to the next meeting, and the technology has added a lot to it.

[00:24:48.80] So I appreciate your two pivotal stories, very big significant moments in teachers' lives that helped you in your career of writing, so you write about this now. How does this go into your writing, Maria? How does that story? How is it influenced the way in which you have moved forward?

[00:25:15.07] MARIA WALTHER: Well, I think it's also like book selection and so providing students with literature where they can see themselves in that book. So I mean, when I started teaching there weren't books with neurodivergent children in them, there just weren't. Maybe there were a few, but I didn't have them in my classroom.

[00:25:35.77] So I think that's another way to give children tools and strategies, is to show a book where a child who is like them is navigating the world and figuring things out. I think that's how I put it into my writing, it's more the books I'm selecting and helping teachers to find those books so that they can bring those books into the classroom for the children that they have.

[00:26:01.45] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That's great. And Sandy, what did you think about Maria's story or how it relates to the work you're doing in positive education and--

[00:26:13.60] SANDRA BROWER: I loved your story for, excuse me, for a couple of reasons. One, I have a daughter who is Asperger's, she has Asperger's. So she struggled in school and it was that whole social piece that was very difficult for her.

[00:26:28.96] So as far as that goes and the whole idea of not just those children, but any child can be a puzzle that we need to figure out and that's part of the challenge. And I think using books is an excellent way to connect with them definitely is building social relationships or talking about any if you want to call it SEL or any well-being piece, it's a beautiful tool to use because there's so many different books and stories out there that you can engage the kids with. Whatever it is--

[00:27:12.73] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, yes.

[00:27:14.86] SANDRA BROWER: So I think it's beautiful. Thank you.

[00:27:16.57] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I want to just close this up with just going back to your student, Sandy, that hated the teacher and it was the math teacher. And I think just to make this explicit when students and teachers make these kinds of judgments, it also brings down the content that the teacher is teaching.

[00:27:38.25] So it gets attached to the way students would talk about, well, I hate my history teacher. They define the content and the teacher or did that student hate you, Maria, because he didn't want to engage? There was something and some teachers might have said he was stubborn.

[00:28:01.70] We don't know how these judgments get layered on the content that's being taught that closes kids down from that whole content of math. If you had not intervened it would be so interesting to know how successful that student was in the content, how that shifted the content or the reading. Did he become a lifelong reader because of these emotional attachments that we add to these situations?

[00:28:37.33] SANDRA BROWER: And that's the thing that's interesting is you sometimes you find out years later the impact that you had on a child and you don't realize it. It would have been wonderful to find out, I wish I had actually reached out to find out how she was doing with her math.

[00:28:53.71] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, well I'm just throwing it out there because we do-- as we're all thinking of the favorite teachers that we had is, how is that content? Usually if it was the hated teacher it wasn't the favorite content.

[00:29:08.68] SANDRA BROWER: Either.

[00:29:11.08] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So I just want to put that out there to see how we connect those dots as teachers and learners ourselves in our own college classrooms and places that we go. But all right, let's go to classroom management. I just want to talk about classroom management and how we have this big umbrella term.

[00:29:34.60] If we talk to beginning teachers or if we talk to any teacher really and we say, what's your biggest challenge? They always say classroom management, classroom management. But I see classroom management in very specific ways. It could be organization of paper. It could be managing behavior, and rules, and rituals, and responses to that.

[00:29:58.65] So there's a lot of managing in classroom management, and there is a lot of advice out there, and there are practical things. And I think sometimes we hold on to our wisdoms that we used to have some teachers say, oh, you'll figure it out, you'll learn. And I think we should just share everything up front with the beginners.

[00:30:18.14] So do you each have a tried and true or a couple of things the listeners could actually do in their classrooms? And maybe it's K-12 too, so it doesn't have to be just for first graders. Maria, what comes to your mind?

[00:30:35.56] MARIA WALTHER: Well, this is actually not my idea, so someone shared their wisdom with me and that person was Debbie Miller, she's written many books about teaching. And her wisdom was to use songs to transition students from one activity to the next.

[00:30:51.10] And so my daughter was, I think, in high school and this is in the old days remember. So I had her make a playlist, burned it onto a CD, remember those?

[00:31:02.53] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:31:04.68] MARIA WALTHER: And so I had specific songs for different parts of the day. We used a lot of show tunes and just snippets of songs. So when it was time for lunch we'd play Oliver, Food, Glorious Food. When it was time for-- I can't think of any of the other ones. And we even put funny ones in there. We didn't use them, but taking care of business when it was time for a bathroom.

[00:31:27.58] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it, I love it. I can hear it, but we're going to have dad music in this podcast.

[00:31:35.72] MARIA WALTHER: And so had a lot of different snippets. So it wasn't just the same song for the same part of the day, there were lots of different songs. But here is the benefit of using song, whether you use it for transitions, whether you use quiet music when students are working, whether you have music playing when they come into the classroom, as we know music sets a tone for the day and for transitions, especially when you're in any type of classroom when you're transitioning from one activity to the next, you as the teacher usually has to gather supplies or go get whatever you need for the next lesson.

[00:32:12.99] So by playing a song, you have time to go gather your things that you need and then the students have that signal. And the other part about it is I always say, you know the Charlie Brown teacher voice, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah.

[00:32:28.52] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:32:29.65] MARIA WALTHER: Well, when we're talking all day long that's what it ends up sounding like. All they hear is wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. So that eliminates some talking because when I'm working with new teachers, I often see a lot of talking and I think sometimes if we can eliminate some of that talking and just do that through song or actions, I know people use chimes and different other musical ways of calling students together, so that's my tip.

[00:33:00.90] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it, I love it. I can't believe that I never did that one. I can remember shutting the lights off as a beginning teacher and it was in the dark, but it was in the dark or a Simon says, follow me, and put the kids in front of the class, and they'd touch your head, touch your toe, and it would keep them quiet.

[00:33:22.71] But I love the music and I love the creativity around that the kids could probably submit songs for the playlist, which would be awesome to hear their song and just have it for-- transitions are probably the toughest thing for any teachers really.

[00:33:45.23] I wonder if any schools would do it in the hallways that would be cool instead of just line up against the lockers and be quiet. But having music go through the schools would be interesting. Did all the songs have words or could they just have music?

[00:34:03.77] MARIA WALTHER: For the transitions, yes, when I played music when kids were working and then it was quiet relaxing, but all the transition songs. And it was fun because they didn't know the musicals.

[00:34:15.41] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, that's true.

[00:34:16.52] MARIA WALTHER: And so was also introducing them to musical theater because they would sing it and would say, oh, well, that's from a play, that play is called Oliver.

[00:34:24.22] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And these are first graders. Are they dancing? Are they dancing too?

[00:34:28.21] MARIA WALTHER: Yes. And then I also used song picture books so every day we would end the day with a picture book that was a song. And my funny story about that, and it is still like Kathy, my friend that I still collaborate with uses it, but there's a song picture book of John Denver's, Take Me Home Country Road. And there is nothing more special than ending your day with all the children going take me home.

[00:34:54.45] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Take me home.

[00:34:55.83] MARIA WALTHER: And they love it.

[00:34:57.30] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it.

[00:34:58.44] MARIA WALTHER: Love it.

[00:34:58.98] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. The teachers are saying the same thing, that's probably what could be put on the intercom.

[00:35:05.51] MARIA WALTHER: Yeah, exactly.

[00:35:06.57] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: At the end of the day, the principal can put that one up. I love it. You've got on to something, that's great, and practical, and fun, and adds another Howard Gardner multiple intelligence. And yay, love it. So what else can we do for managing or transitioning? Do you have any other practical way?

[00:35:32.49] MARIA WALTHER: Yeah. Well, for me, I was going to say you know consistency routine is definitely very important and being authentic with the kids. They know when you're not, so just be real with them. But I know for me a lot of times before I, one, making sure I'm ready when they come in.

[00:35:54.78] But when they do come in, I greet them, hey, how are you doing? Or when I'm taking attendance say, hey, how are you doing? How's your day going? And then sometimes that'll actually set off a conversation, a child or a teen will respond and say, well, my day's not going all that great. Well, why is that? And we just have like a little whole group conversation for about five minutes before we get going on class. And think the kids really appreciate that just--

[00:36:24.75] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, that connection, yes.

[00:36:29.22] MARIA WALTHER: --just to chit chat and connect with each other. I did have one year. I had before my class the kids were in gym, they were seventh graders. And they were in gym class. And they would come in and they were just so wound up, it took quite a while to get them to settle in.

[00:36:48.95] So I started teaching them breathing techniques. It's like OK, bell goes off. Let's sit, and breathe together, and we would. And I think the kids got to the point where they really appreciated that time just to breathe, and calm their systems, and then redirect into whatever it is that we were going to be doing that day. And we made it a habit and I think they really appreciated just that time to breathe.

[00:37:19.46] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, let's add decompression and again, it's transitions. So we're talking about school as transition and then it's the human physical body that reacts to stimuli. So all of this affects the kids and each teacher expects this calmness.

[00:37:38.03] But back to your original story of giving the students the tools, I think it's vital for us as educators to keep thinking about what are the tools that I need to contribute right now to the students in front of me instead of expecting the school to do it, or the parents to do it, or the whatever.

[00:38:02.63] I mean, we can go down that rabbit hole, which we're not going to do on this podcast, but we want to pull out the wisdom that we all have that we've been using successfully and do it just with the kids that are in front of us because those are the two students in your stories that that was the difference that was made.

[00:38:23.29] So thanks for sharing that because that's really helpful. Now, Maria, you've written a lot of books, you have some bestsellers with Corwin. You shared a little bit about how you got into the writing after D, AD, after dissertation. But talk a little bit about your picture book ideas and your favorite book that you've written. Just talk a little bit about your writing process.

[00:38:47.02] MARIA WALTHER: Well, I have to say my favorite book that I've written is my Corwin book, Ramped-Up Read Aloud. And the reason that's my favorite is because as my story showed, I've always had an unwavering belief in the power of read aloud.

[00:39:02.32] I think that when you can select the right book a read aloud experience can be a joyful learning event. Joyful being the key word there. So in Ramped-Up Read Aloud, it really came from the fact that I read aloud and kept a tally of someone had visited my classroom and said, you really should write something about read aloud.

[00:39:24.77] So that's what I did and it ended up being a book that has 101 read aloud experiences. So I selected books based on my knowledge of books and then I just helped teachers to see how you could ask those open-ended questions that would provide opportunities for students to converse with each other and at the same time meet those all important ELA standards.

[00:39:53.33] So then after that we layered on top of that or I wrote shakeup shared reading so then after the read aloud experience teachers could take that into the shared reading context and reread the book for different reasons.

[00:40:08.03] So it's the most joyful writing ever. Probably the most difficult part of it is picking the books which I'm in the process of right now for volume 2 of Ramped-Up. And I mean, I literally have stacks and piles of picture books in my house and trying to narrow them down to the ones that will work best with kids.

[00:40:31.97] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love what you're talking about. So you're bringing me right back to my fifth grade classroom. I loved to read aloud. I don't know who, was it Lucy Calkins? I don't know who I was reading at the time when we were taking courses that got me into it, but I can remember and I read every day aloud, I taught fifth grade. And I had a director's chair and I would sit in the front up so I could see all the kids.

[00:40:57.05] And I remember reading Dear Mr. Henshaw, I don't know if you have read that because it's more middle grades. And I can remember starting-- I was crying as I was reading the book. And the students' experience of the teacher getting so drawn in, for me, made a difference in the way I taught after that.

[00:41:25.17] I always did read aloud so what you're saying. And if the listeners, the teachers that are listening if you don't do read aloud, you need to do it because it shows the students who we are too by our selection of books and what we choose to read aloud and then choosing the students.

[00:41:42.49] I know you had first graders, but my kids were older and they could sit in the director's chair and read aloud if they chose to. So they could have that experience because the voice is the music that you're using in your transition. So you're bringing voice into that classroom. So bravo, I love that story. Good luck.

[00:42:03.52] MARIA WALTHER: Very joyful writing.

[00:42:04.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, and so I'm trying to think of high school and middle school teachers because you're using the picture books. I want to talk about that. So how do you how do you support other--

[00:42:16.04] MARIA WALTHER: Different books belong in every classroom.

[00:42:17.98] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, so this is graphic. Is this graphic novels too? Does that fit or is that different? I don't know.

[00:42:23.96] MARIA WALTHER: A little different. I think just mostly picture books. And recently I saw Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul talk and she said that picture books are short stories that belong in every classroom. And that was an aha moment for me, her wisdom, because that's really what they are, they're just a short story. So I think you can use picture books across the grade.

[00:42:45.23] My daughter teaches seventh grade. She uses picture books all the time because you can build background. If you're studying a topic, you could build background with a picture book, you can create a text set of picture books, there's so many things that you can do with picture books. So that's part of our--

[00:43:01.04] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, I love that. So I can remember having two students sit next to each other on the floor with a picture book and just go back and forth making up a story. Is that something you did? They'd say, oh, once upon a time, and they'd look at the picture and made it up. And is that something that is done or did I just make that up?

[00:43:21.47] MARIA WALTHER: Well, I think that's a prereading, that's students who are still, they're not able to read the words yet perhaps, they're able to tell the story. And we know that reading is based on oral language. So having them do that is a way to support them as readers and that's another wonderful use of a picture book.

[00:43:42.30] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I remember doing that. And I had a student in fifth grade and my school burned down one year and I taught in a trailer for the following year, a whole other story. But I discovered a fifth grader who couldn't read and it was through this picture book situation, and he was reading with someone, and then we could tell that he didn't have the oral, he didn't have the language. And he had gone to fifth grade without it.

[00:44:10.31] So I'm a big-- but the oral reading, and the read aloud, and everything by the end of the year, he actually read his first book and it was like, hey, I read my first book, he was so excited. So thank you for your contribution around reading and oral language.

[00:44:25.46] And you're not just a first grade teacher, and I don't mean just, because I think first grade and kindergarten are the most difficult grades to teach, but thank you. Thank you for that contribution. Now, Sandy, you are in a published book. How did that feel to be part of the weekly wisdom, that your wisdom was chosen for the When I Started Teaching book, your first publication?

[00:44:56.78] SANDRA BROWER: I am very proud to have been part of that. I know I was reluctant to begin with, Carol, you had to beg me.

[00:45:05.12] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I did beg you because you had such a good story.

[00:45:08.21] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah. No, but I'm very proud to have been a part of that whole project, Carol, because to get that book and to start reading some of the stories that the teacher tells and just to understand that this is real life in the classroom, this is what's going on with our teachers today and how much it showed.

[00:45:29.97] To me it shows how much those teachers care, and love their job, and love their students. And to be able to take that then and share it with other teachers is huge. I remember when I was working for the academy, we had a day where the kids from-- we had 20 like 15, 20 different schools, this is high school, we'd come for a day and learn about character ed, and well-being, and so on, and so forth.

[00:45:59.68] But we had a time during the day when we just had the teachers all together. And we had a principal who facilitated the conversation and we had allotted only like a 40-minute time period for these teachers to get together and talk about character ed, and what's going on in their schools, and the challenges they have.

[00:46:19.19] It ended up being 80 minutes those teachers were talking and it was a very lively and engaging conversation. And they were just learning from each other and it was just wonderful to see that happen with the teachers. So I think that needs to happen more often.

[00:46:34.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I believe I agree with you. But your focus now really is direct service to students. So just tell me a little bit about the organization that you're part of. And your writing is on the website and that publication. So just tell us a little bit about how we connected with Positive Education Consortium and why people need to know about this, why do the teachers need to know about this?

[00:47:03.01] SANDRA BROWER: Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah, I'm part of it. It's a nonprofit group called the Positive Education Consortium. And like I said, it's international. So we have members from the UK, from Canada, all over. And our basic common interest is positive psychology, which is the science of human flourishing and well-being. And underneath that umbrella you'll find character ed, and SEL, and everything else.

[00:47:32.48] But we all met back in 2018 from a conference we'd gone to in Dallas about accelerating positive education and we've been meeting ever since. I'm actually the secretary of the group, so that's another place where my writing comes in. I've done the pamphlets the brochures, the poster, and the different things for that, but it's all about bringing well-being into our schools.

[00:48:00.97] It's huge over in Australia. They have positive education written into their governmental countries policies where every school needs to have positive education pieces within it, but that's where I got sidetracked. I started out with health education and I ended up going and getting my certifications and applied positive psychology.

[00:48:26.68] And the goal of our group is to bring positive education into the United States. And like I said, it's all about teaching kids and teachers actually well-being practices. There's so many skills and practices that you can learn. And part of it is like the science of gratitude. Believe it or not, there's a science to gratitude and how that emotion helps to build your well-being.

[00:48:55.27] And doing gratitude practices builds your well-being, it shifts your negative or your difficult emotions to your positive emotions, which then enhances your health, your whole health. There's a science to kindness, which I actually just recently taught to seventh and eighth graders and that was a lot of fun.

[00:49:16.94] But that's what our goal is to bring this into schools in the United States because for me, as a health educator I think that has to be the primary focus of all schools because if you don't have the health of the student, you don't really have academics. And I've seen it so many times in schools where these kids who are struggling, they don't care about their academics, it doesn't matter to them.

[00:49:44.82] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: My commitment is to do that with teachers because I think we both need to be learning the same skills and that's why I wrote Teaching With Light during COVID with the stories and the emotional situations that we all face, but we just need the tools like gave that tool to the student at the beginning of our show to see the three positive things.

[00:50:12.42] We need to teach teachers to do that with our colleagues, with the principal, with the superintendent let's see the three positive things because we're human beings and that's what Teacher to Teacher wisdom is all about. And the two of you just gave us such a fabulous conversation today and lots to think about. So how do you stay positive? You each have a chance to share an idea. What do you do for your well being. So that you can continue to flourish, and write, and participate fully? What do you do, Maria?

[00:50:52.21] MARIA WALTHER: So I'm an avid swimmer. So there is nothing to me more relaxing and healing than being in the water and swimming. And I have the good fortune of swimming at a Park District, beautiful pool.

[00:51:04.25] And what I love about being there in particular is the community of swimmers of all ages and abilities. And my favorite swimmer is a woman, she's 84. And she comes into the locker room in the morning and I'm done with my swim and she says congratulations to everyone who has finished their swim already.

[00:51:24.27] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, I love it.

[00:51:26.33] MARIA WALTHER: So when you talk about positivity like there's so much positivity in the community, but then there is that heat part of being in water.

[00:51:35.07] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, and the thing is what we need to emphasize is we need to find what it is we love to do to nourish ourselves. And as teachers, and committee people, and writers, and all of this, it's a daunting job and we could just get swallowed up, but to have that swim it must reset you so then you can go back and pick them, choose the books that you're doing for your second edition in a more graceful way. Does that happen to you after--

[00:52:10.62] MARIA WALTHER: After my best writing days are always the days that I get up and swim because sometimes it's not so easy to get up.

[00:52:16.41] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. Sandy, what do you choose to nourish your heart and soul?

[00:52:23.67] SANDRA BROWER: Well, for me, obviously positive psychology comes top of mind. Our framework is you learn the skills, you live those skills, you teach those skills, and then you embed those skills. And one of the things that I find outside of learning and practicing those is nature.

[00:52:46.53] I love walks in the woods. I love time away from noise out in the middle of nowhere. I love my garden. I have a vegetable garden and a flower garden that I just love to get out there and weed because it's so relaxing.

[00:53:05.95] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, well thank you both for the seriousness, but the lightness that came through in this conversation with two teachers who never met before and that's what Teacher to Teacher is all about finding the common wisdom, and the shared perspectives, and the differences. So let's end our podcast with a prompt from Richard Elmore's book, I Used to Think and Now I think. What has changed or shifted that has brought you to this next level of learning for yourself, Maria? I Used to Think and Now I Think.

[00:53:45.07] MARIA WALTHER: I used to think because I was raised as a teacher during the debate between phonics and whole language, that dates me. I used to think that education, that our trends were like a pendulum because that's what everyone said when I was a young teacher, it's pendulum. And the pendulum is swinging back and forth. But I think that type of binary thinking this or that is not really helpful for us, it's not healthy, and it's also not helpful for our students.

[00:54:17.09] So now I think that we-- and what I've done over my career is we weave together the best practices from every trend, and so the evidence-based practices and we take them and we weave them together. So I think that rather than education being a pendulum, I look at it as a quilt and we weave all those pieces together in a different way every year because we have a different class every year who has different needs every.

[00:54:47.74] If we're talking about teaching readers, there's no one right way, every reader needs something different. So that's why I used to think it was a pendulum and now I really believe that we have to view it like a quilt to come to some consensus for kids.

[00:55:03.50] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. And Sandy, what's your, I Used to Think and Now I Think wisdom?

[00:55:10.31] SANDRA BROWER: I used to think that our educational system provided everything that our children needed and obviously academics is very important. They need to learn to read, and write, and do math, and so on, and so forth.

[00:55:24.33] But after working in schools I see that we're missing the whole well-being piece. To me, that's really important, I think that has to be top priority. So I used to think that education provided everything that our students and our kids need, but now I think that we're missing this one piece that really needs to be a priority for our kids, they need us.

[00:55:52.52] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: They do. And I would add that for teachers as well and that is my message and why I love working with you because you put the students there and then I'll say and the teachers. So I used to think that if you were prepared to be a teacher, and you knew your content, and you had all of the teaching skills, and all of the wisdom from your mentors that you would be successful in the classroom.

[00:56:19.94] And now I think, and know, and realize that the well being and the part of being a teacher has to be nourished and the tools have to be given whether it be the breathing tools, or the reading aloud, or whatever it is, the teachers need that same knowledge that we give to our students as well and a big cycle.

[00:56:44.36] So I thank you both from the bottom of my heart. This was a wonderfully invigorating and fun conversation. I'm going to go get my playlist to transition to my next work activity. So we'll see what I'm going to choose. Thank you. And Tori, what are your final words for this podcast that we created today?

[00:57:06.98] TORI BACHMAN: Thank you both. I actually really enjoyed. I loved how your experiences and your approach to education meshed even though you have very different backgrounds, you teach kids who are very different ages. The ways that you talked about providing tools to students and the conversation about teachers in inquiry and actually paying attention and asking yourself, what does this child need? It's really powerful and you're doing that work in different ways.

[00:57:46.43] Giving kids the tools to communicate with one another and build relationships with their peers and with their teachers is really valuable work and something that I do think is important at all ages.

[00:58:01.16] Sandy, like you said the student that you were working with was older and maybe you had others around her had assumed that she knew how to communicate with adults or could express her feelings and you had that aha in realizing that she needed to just flip the script a little bit. And I think that was a really powerful story.

[00:58:24.80] And just stepping back and letting the kids own those tools and have that agency is really important too. I also just love the idea of the music for transition times, but you both spoke about transition. Sandy bringing up the breathing activity of it is for kids, that actually came up in my house just last night. In fact, we had to have a moment of sitting and breathing, but because summer is a whole other ball of wax.

[00:58:58.51] But yeah, giving kids that time to recognize that this is a transition and I'm going to do something else now that's different than what I was doing five minutes ago is really important. And again, another set of tools that they can take with them when they start to recognize that they need that moment to sit and breathe or they recognize that this song or this cue means I'm doing something else now, those are really important things.

[00:59:24.74] So I appreciate so much of this conversation and the way that you're both bringing your knowledge of well-being, and relationship building, and supporting students as whole people is really, really encouraging, and powerful, and I think gives us a lot of insight. So thank you.

[00:59:50.04] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. It's been such a privilege and pleasure to host and have this conversation go out on the universe for everyone to hear. Thank you so much. We'll see you next time on Teacher to Teacher.

[01:00:06.88] ANNOUNCER: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Corwin's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com.

[01:00:23.23] Please leave a review, and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.

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