Are Our Leaders Ready?

Series 6 Leaders Coaching Leaders

[00:00:00.68] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast, with host Peter Dewitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning, not by chance, but by design.

[00:00:19.90] TANYA GHANS: Hey, Peter, how are you?

[00:00:21.67] PETER DEWITT: I'm doing well, Tanya. How are you?

[00:00:24.43] TANYA GHANS: I'm good. It's always nice to see you here on another session of the Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast.

[00:00:29.50] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, for sure. It's always good to see you.

[00:00:32.92] TANYA GHANS: And we've been getting some noise. People have been--

[00:00:36.01] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, so I've actually-- it's been good. I've been on the road a lot. And I have people either email me. Or I've had people contact me through Twitter and come up to me during the workshops to say how much they enjoy listening to the Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast. And this is not something you and I often-- well, we've never talked about it actually when we've-- when we've been on the podcast.

[00:00:57.73] So it's really nice to get some of that feedback from people. And they're using it in their leadership classes. And they're using it for assignments and stuff. So it's really great. I love that people are enjoying the power of the conversations that we're able to have.

[00:01:13.54] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, that's fantastic. I'm really glad to hear that. And so today, this is probably going to be another episode that can be used in someone's coursework somewhere to really speak to the present issue of leader attrition, excuse me. And just finding leaders who are interested in taking on the role of leading schools.

[00:01:36.56] And so I'm excited to say we have some return guests, Tim Cusack, who's been an educator for over 30 years. He worked as a superintendent in Edmonton Schools, where he supported over 100 schools. And now, hot off the presses, he is currently the dean of education at Concordia University also in Edmonton. So a wealth of experience in terms of leader preparation.

[00:02:03.50] And Vince Bustamante, coach/content developer who works with school leaders, really interested in seeing the impact of teachers work on students. And they came together to write a book, Leader Ready, Four Pathways to Prepare Aspiring School Leaders. And today's conversation will be all about this, again, really important issue. I'm excited to have them on.

[00:02:27.52] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, and I think one of the things that we talked about in the-- in the podcast, people will hear, Tim and Vince have been working on the book for a while. And the four of us have talked about it for quite a while. So I'm really proud-- I know it sounds silly to say that, but I'm really proud of the hard work that they put into it and put it out. I wrote the foreword to the book, which I'm honored.

[00:02:50.08] But they definitely have a great deal of experience. And Tim even has this background, he's been in the military for decades as well. He's been an officer in the military. So he's got all this unique kind of experience that plays out in how they really want to be able to support leaders. And that's the conversation that we get into.

[00:03:14.95] You and I were talking offline, they definitely don't like to call it a pipeline. That is something that we want to make sure that they-- in fact, they wrote a guest blog for me for Finding Common Ground. And the whole part of it is about let's not call it a pipeline. So yeah, it's a really good book. And I think it's something that a lot of leadership-- a lot of schools of ed leadership would want to be able to use.

[00:03:43.69] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, and I like they really do stress clarity in getting people ready for the role. Removing the mystery, or the what is it really mean to be a school leader, or a principal leader. This book is really good at that the way that they describe it in this discussion, I think, is super clear. Both Vince and Tim, I think, have a real gift at getting to the heart of what it is they're trying to do. And chunking it in ways that make it accessible for the listener and also the reader of their texts. So listeners, I think you're really going to enjoy this. And again, very timely.

[00:04:18.40] PETER DEWITT: Yes, so enjoy the podcast.

[00:04:20.89] TANYA GHANS: And Peter, I'll see you on the other side.

[00:04:22.39] PETER DEWITT: Sounds good. Tim Cusack and Vince Bustamante, welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast.

[00:04:32.14] TIM CUSACK: Thanks very much, Peter. It's great to be with you again.

[00:04:36.04] VINCE BUSTAMANTE: Looking forward to it. Thanks, Peter.

[00:04:38.56] PETER DEWITT: I should say welcome back to the Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast because you both have been on before. And everybody loved the episode. And we definitely wanted you back especially after you know the book came out that I have. So Leader Ready Four Pathways to Prepare Aspiring School Leaders, so Tim, I'm going to start with you. Talk to us a little bit about what made you want to engage in this area. What was-- what was missing from the dialogue that you wanted to add to?

[00:05:11.14] TIM CUSACK: Thanks, Peter. So in my previous role, I served as a deputy chief superintendent, a school board of 100 schools and looking at the professional development of middle leaders and really noticing that something was missing in their preparation. And largely, that was the voice of our aspiring leaders asking them what they felt might be important to help them in their growth and their journey towards school principalship.

[00:05:40.07] And we know we're hearing that attrition rates, retirement rates are high. And we really need to be far more intentional in creating conditions that attract our aspiring leaders to step onto those pathways towards school leadership. So capturing their voice is really important to me.

[00:05:58.40] PETER DEWITT: And Vince, what part did you play in this?

[00:06:01.40] VINCE BUSTAMANTE: I have the aspiring leader perspective, I guess, is one way to look at it. I've worked with Tim in a couple different capacities over my career in education and K-12 education. So I was a teacher when Tim was a principal. And then Tim tapped me on the shoulder to be the department chair of social studies for a 7 to 12 school.

[00:06:23.24] And then when Tim moved on in his career to assistant superintendent of curriculum, we call it learning services, which is basically curriculum, and instruction, and assessment. He again tapped me on the shoulder to take a leadership position within that department. So Tim's kind of been-- not kind of, Tim has been a guide for me in my leadership development.

[00:06:44.09] And so I wrote-- I've written previous books for Corwin that focused on implementation. And so I brought with me the lens of a of an aspiring leader and then a professional who has a focus in implementation and making things work. So two different lenses came together to write this one.

[00:07:02.67] PETER DEWITT: So I like those words, aspiring leader. And one of the things that is an interesting juxtaposition, Tim, is we're talking about aspiring leaders at the same time you were talking about attrition. So why do people aspire to be a leader and then they don't stay long?

[00:07:21.75] TIM CUSACK: I think when we look at a lot of the most recent research, we look at work/life balance. We look at the complexities and challenges of demands from central offices on principals today, when we look at even aspects of compensation, working conditions, there are a lot of reasons why somebody might say, I'm not sure this is for me.

[00:07:47.04] And we know that our assistant principals are aspiring leaders. They're watching their principals very closely. They're seeing what happens and making judgments sometimes of, well, I don't think I want to do that. Or hopefully through our four pathways is I see how I can do this with great impact or effect, I want to do this.

[00:08:09.21] And so we hear the concept of the principal pipeline. Well, Vince and I argue that that's probably not the best metaphor to use. When you have a pipeline, you put water, oil, gas, whatever you put at the beginning, that's what you get at the end. And while, yes, we need a steady supply of leaders, we feel that there's a way to prepare that increases self-efficacy, that provides a great set of skills.

[00:08:40.44] And we talk about the skill, will, and thrill of leadership and what every aspiring leader should know understand and be able to do, and how to equip principles and systems leaders with processes that can actually leverage that to guide those aspiring leaders along those pathways to show them how to realize greater success in the leadership tasks that they have to do.

[00:09:03.15] PETER DEWITT: So can you talk a little bit more, Vince, about what are the four pathways?

[00:09:08.82] VINCE BUSTAMANTE: Sure, I think too I just want to add something real quick to what Tim said. I think also the attrition thing is I think part of it is there's not a-- there's not a as much clarity as we think there is in what entails leadership as a school leader. It's not dissimilar to having parents who think they know what happens in the classroom because they have kids.

[00:09:32.41] I'm in the school with my leader. And I know what that means. So I can be a leader. And then when we get into the leadership role, we're quick to kind of say, this is not what I was expecting. So part of the four pathways-- or the four-- yeah, the four pathways to school leadership preparation is being clear on what those expectations are.

[00:09:52.83] So our four pathways, the first is understanding, knowing your leadership standards, whether you have national, or provincial, or local standards, what are those expectations? The second is how, from an existing leader position, are you creating or fostering a culture for implementation? So what does leadership development look like at your at your local site? Who are your aspiring leaders? That's what Tim mentioned, the skill, will, and thrill.

[00:10:21.79] So if I was coming to your school new from where I live now as an aspiring leader, what do you know about me before making a judgment on whether you think I'm capable of being a leader or not? And one of the things that we noticed when we were writing this book is in that culture, there's-- we have a lot of second career teachers, teachers coming to the-- to the profession as a second career. Well, what did they do in their previous career? And do they have leadership experience that we can leverage?

[00:10:48.22] The third, once we figure out what our standards are and what the culture is, we have a chapter that we call "Guided Leadership Experiences," which is our third pathway. And it's basically how are we creating a gradual release of responsibility model to prepare those aspiring leaders. So what tasks are we giving them? Are we shedding light on what the realities of a principalship looks like? And are we allowing those assistant principals or aspiring leaders to be a part of that?

[00:11:15.91] And then lastly is what we call celebrating and attaining mastery experiences. So we're working towards mastery always. Mastery is something that's very difficult to achieve. But it's imperative that we celebrate those mastery experiences because then that becomes contagious. If I experience mastery in running a faculty meeting, well then maybe I will have a little bit more internal motivation to try to help run a PTA meeting or something like that. So those are our four pathways.

[00:11:43.93] PETER DEWITT: And I like what you said before you started with the pathways too when you were talking about they're entering into leadership, but do they really know what they're getting into? And there's research to show that, especially when you're a building leader, you are in charge of a system. But you forget that you're a part of a greater system. Tim, you were talking about 100 schools within your system.

[00:12:08.09] And there's always that kind of rub between the principal, and the superintendent, or whatever the title might be. And one of the things that I was wondering, Tim, you're in a new position. You're at the university level now after many years in K-12. So what are you doing differently in your position as dean of a university where you're trying to help bridge that gap, maybe?

[00:12:36.59] Because when I was doing my leadership degree, I took-- I remember, I was taking a four hour class every Wednesday night. There was supposed to be every other Wednesday. But that was a way to get two classes done at the same time, so you take them every Wednesday. And as much as I loved the professor, one of our classes, he showed us the movie High Noon.

[00:12:54.29] And I thought, oh, this is vaguely inappropriate for school leadership. It was supposed to be modeling what school leadership looks like. So are you-- are you showing High Noon, Tim, in your-- in your university programs? Or what are you doing to kind of bridge that gap between the knowing and doing?

[00:13:14.12] TIM CUSACK: Well, I would say it's really a shout out to your work, Peter, is we're looking at those elements of de-implementing. So when we think of our standards, our teaching standards, our leadership standards, they're often siloed. And so we're going to stop looking at them as silos.

[00:13:30.62] And so what's important to understand is a beginning teacher leads a learning community. They are instructional leaders. And those are attributes that we often see in a leadership standard, but not in the teaching standard. And so we have-- Vince and I have this mantra of shine some of your leadership standards on your teachers because if we give them that early exposure to what leadership attributes look like, what should leaders know, understand, and be able to do, and leverage that within the teaching context, the teacher as leader.

[00:14:05.40] And they truly are. And don't think enough light and attention is shone upon that. And so one of the things I'm hoping to really effect at the education level with our pre-service teachers is really showing and modeling for them that leadership isn't just a title. Leadership isn't just a position. Leadership is intrinsic to who we are as educators.

[00:14:27.93] We want to lead our students to those next destinations. We want to provide great instructional design, have high impact practices. So by shining some leadership standard on the development of our teachers, I think we can achieve that.

[00:14:43.77] PETER DEWITT: I think it also kind of shows the importance of when you're, say, at the building level, if you have an instructional leadership team, it shows the importance of making sure that you're valuing the voices of the people around. Because that's a great spot to really help bring up that instructional leadership part on the part of teachers as well.

[00:15:07.65] I know that a lot of the work that you both do has been guided, not just from your experience within the K-12 setting, but also you have the same experiences that I do, where when you're coaching or you're facilitating workshops, people, I don't think-- sometimes people that may not write books, I think they might think you wake up in the morning and you're like, hey, that's going to be a really good idea. I think I'm going to-- I'm going to write that. And then I'll find some research.

[00:15:33.66] But what they might not understand is that we get a lot of information from running workshops and coaching because there are a lot of common themes that come up. And that's where you start to say, oh, there's something going on here that I need to explore. That's where good ideas come from for books.

[00:15:51.63] So in doing this work, over the time you've been doing it, because you were writing the book for quite a while, and I know that it gave you also the opportunity, which is fantastic, it gives you the opportunity to really go deep with the content when you're doing that because you're exploring at the same time you're presenting. And that leads to a really good book.

[00:16:12.36] So what are some of the things that have come up in conversations with the both of you with people in workshops or people that you're coaching when it comes to this work? Is there-- are there a couple of things that come up more than others? I hope that makes sense when I ask that question.

[00:16:32.25] VINCE BUSTAMANTE: I can start. I've been very fortunate over the past few years to do workshops across North America and then virtually internationally as well, which has been awesome. And a lot of the times, I think it's the stereotype with aspiring leaders that they have to wait a certain amount of time.

[00:16:52.62] It's almost like-- so we're talking think about leadership as a stop on the timeline of our career where it's now I'm ready because the calendar has flipped. And it's been 10 years that I've been in the classroom. And I think it's time. And you hear that a lot. I think it's time for me to move-- and oftentimes, that move is either out of like I'm bored in my classroom. So I want to move to something new.

[00:17:14.04] Or I'm just ready. And both are OK and not OK simultaneously. And I think one of the things that's resonated with me in my-- and the participants in my workshops is I think I was ready a while ago. But I didn't know I was ready. And so that's the case for me as well in my career.

[00:17:35.09] I vividly remember sitting down with Tim when he was like, I think you should make this move to the district level. And I specifically said I don't think I'm ready. I'm young. What's-- how am I going to be perceived as leading a district level being at a certain age when there's people who have been teaching longer than I was alive at that point in time?

[00:18:00.95] And it was that recognition from the leader to the aspiring leader to say, hey, it's not just a time. It's just your development of your skill. Or I see something in you. So that, for me, was one of the big resonating things. It's not always a timeline thing. Rather, it can be a disposition thing that someone needs to see.

[00:18:21.05] So if you're listening to this and you're in that mentorship role, start letting your aspiring leaders know this is a strength. And yes, you've only been teaching for five years. But this is something that we can develop. And when you are ready or when I think you're ready, we can make that jump into some sort of leadership position.

[00:18:38.64] PETER DEWITT: That's such a great thing to say too. And Vince, I think we've talked about it before. I had been teaching for maybe three or four years. And I was doing my master's degree. And my principal had been in the district for almost 50 years by that time. And he told me that it was a mistake to get my master's in ed psych from Marist College. And that I should go back for school administration.

[00:19:00.66] And I said no way. I'm never going to be a school principal. I couldn't see it. And I don't know if it's because he put the bug in my ear and three years later, I found myself exploring my leadership degree, or if he saw something that I didn't see. But I think it's a good point for you to actually mention that because also one of the-- some of the backlash, I guess, for principals specifically when they enter into school leadership is people that they have this kind of ingrained idea of how many years you should be teaching before you can actually be a school leader.

[00:19:37.86] That's been explored a lot. I've had friends who have talked to me about the fact that they get pushback because they didn't teach for 10 years before they-- before they became a principal. Or I taught for 11 years before I became a principal. And there are people that said, well, thank goodness you had so much teaching experience. So it's interesting to hear you talk about that piece specifically because you're right.

[00:19:59.70] There isn't this cap of how many years you're supposed to have. And that, I would venture to guess, why you also were very specific in calling the book Leader Ready. Tim, how does this impact you? I mean, I know I asked what you plan on doing at the-- at the university level. But I would almost venture to guess that writing this book, one, I've known you for many years now.

[00:20:28.22] We met a few years ago. And you had this wealth of knowledge because you've had several different leadership positions, not just from a K-12 education level. But you've also-- people might not know that you have a military background where you've got leadership experience as well. So you've got two of these.

[00:20:48.99] So all of these ideas are coming into this one book, which is amazing in general to try to capture all of that. But I would venture to guess that it almost gives you a sense of urgency. Now that you've got this place where you've written this book with Vince, is there a sense of urgency in your position to look at some people that are professors teaching the classes and say, no, we need to be able to make sure we're doing this, this, and this?

[00:21:16.60] TIM CUSACK: Yeah, there absolutely is urgency. And when we look at-- we talked about the disposition that people have, do I want to become a leader? Even like yourself, maybe you didn't see yourself there. And somebody had that conversation with you that saw those characters and attributes. And I think that's the urgency when we talk about succession planning. There's also an element of succession management.

[00:21:39.85] And I think it's important for leaders, school leaders, systems leaders to understand that we have a big role to play in identifying those aspiring leaders and creating those conditions for them to find that success. And that's one of the things I find in facilitating workshops is, well, you know, Tim, there's a lot of theory out there. There's a lot of what we should be doing, but not enough about how to go about it.

[00:22:05.20] And Vince and I set out very intentionally to-- from a practitioner level, of what are some strategies, some approaches that we can use that give principals the opportunity to authentically engage with their aspiring leaders? I think the greatest sense of urgency is to talk to those aspiring leaders and say, what do you need? What do you feel is important? And one of the big Eureka moments that happens in facilitating workshops or PD with principals is the simplicity of an approach of understanding where your people are at, so that they're effective state, understanding the types of conversations and how to leverage the best out of those individuals through meditative questions and talking to them.

[00:22:56.03] And Vince touched on the creating those guided mastery learning opportunities of modeling what great practice looks like and giving those aspiring leaders a chance to practice it in an environment where they can learn from mistakes, that they can really get a sense of how to improve that practice. So the urgency, Peter, really is asking our leaders what they think will be important to them. And as leaders, closely listening to that, and supporting that, and we've identified, again, four pathways that I think are very practical and really will help school leaders, systems leaders do a better job of meeting those leaders where they're at and really bringing them forward to greater levels of success.

[00:23:43.88] PETER DEWITT: Well, I think that's a that's a great place to end. The book is Leader Ready, Four Pathways to Prepare Aspiring School Leaders. I am honored that you asked me to write the foreword. I've been excited about this book over the time that you guys have been writing it. Because I remember when you first approached about writing it, so it's excellently done. And I think it offers a great deal to the profession. So Tim and Vince, thank you so much for being on the Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast.

[00:24:10.46] TIM CUSACK: Thanks very much, Peter. And again, we always appreciate your guidance and support.

[00:24:14.95] VINCE BUSTAMANTE: Thank you very much, Peter. It was, as always, such a pleasure to talk to you.

[00:24:21.59] PETER DEWITT: What did you think of the interview?

[00:24:24.02] TANYA GHANS: Oh, I loved it. I love listening to them. Again, they're so crisp and clear. I think we get really fortunate to have people who are not just knowledgeable, but take the time to express their ideas in ways that will land with the listener. And I think that just shows their thoughtfulness. So I really, really enjoyed it.

[00:24:44.54] And I think there's a line that Tim said that really jumped out at me, which I have it written down. It's shine some of your leadership standards on your teachers, which it was so true in that site leaders can usually-- are usually the first people who start to recognize people who have the potential to be leaders of a school.

[00:25:08.72] And that in their very, very, very busy days, that they can start to take the time to notice those people and start to plant the seeds of maybe this is-- this could be for you. And if it is, let me start revealing to you what this role looks like and entails, even in small ways. I think that's probably one of the most efficient ways to at least get people started on the path. I think even you, you were noticed by one of your school leaders.

[00:25:41.27] PETER DEWITT: Yes, I was, even though I said there's no way I'd be a principal. Boy, was I wrong a few years later. And yeah, actually, I just-- I was running a workshop in outside of Dallas, Texas in Richardson. And it was a kickoff to a one-year program for assistant principals.

[00:25:59.10] And some of them were talking about how they were tapped by their superintendent or their principal. And they were actually surprised. They don't have that self-awareness yet when it comes to leadership. And that's something we were working on. But I think what I appreciate about what Tim and Vince have done with the book is that very often, building leaders especially are just kind of handed the keys and it's like, good luck.

[00:26:24.51] And they're really trying to foster that growth from the very beginning, before maybe you even become-- get that building leader role as well. And that definitely came through within the interview as well.

[00:26:37.54] TANYA GHANS: And people need practice before they feel confident to do what they're going to do. And think it's so-- there's so much common sense in that. Yet when they go into programs, they can get so divorced from let's actually have you work it out. And again, just get a feel for what the role is. And even more than a feel, I mean, they talk about going to the level of giving aspiring leaders mastery experiences.

[00:27:02.68] So they can really have that confidence when they when they get into the role. And I think if more preparation programs did that across the board, you'd have more leaders who didn't have that quote, mismatch of expectations when they when they took it on.

[00:27:17.95] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, I think there's always been kind of this disconnect between a lot of university programs. That's one of the reasons why I asked Tim a couple of times about how are you going to do this differently?

[00:27:30.37] TANYA GHANS: Now that you're there, Tim, what are you gonna do differently?

[00:27:33.19] PETER DEWITT: That's right. Not to put you on the spot, but you just wrote a book. So--

[00:27:37.36] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:27:38.65] PETER DEWITT: And that was-- that was a good conversation. But I just think that that word leader is interesting because I think a lot of people will look and say, well, you're the leader. So you must know it all. And I think a lot of us are trying to say, we don't. We want to take the lead. But sometimes what that means is lowering our status and raising the status around and just-- around us. And just making sure that we are collaborating and getting the best out of the people around us.

[00:28:08.02] But we never stop learning. So just because we're in a leadership position doesn't mean we are experts or know it all. It means that we're willing to take that lead. At the same time, we're-- we know that we have more to learn.

[00:28:23.00] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's-- last little thing that just what you said, reminded me of it's in some countries they don't call school principals, or leaders, either one of those things, or like head teachers, or just something that keeps them very closely tied to. We're all doing the same work. I'm just maybe more in a guidance and facilitator role. But I haven't left this profession. So I think there's a lot to think about in how we discuss leadership roles in education and maybe writ large. So great conversation. Listeners, I really hope you learned a lot.

[00:28:55.52] PETER DEWITT: I did. Yeah, it's always good to talk to Tim and Vince. So thank you for listening. As always, if you have feedback for us, you can let us know through social media or send us an email. Or come up to me at a workshop and let me know too. That's always good to hear.

[00:29:13.16] TANYA GHANS: We'll take it. We'll take the feedback.

[00:29:16.31] PETER DEWITT: That's right, we'll take-- I'm-- I have no shame. If you want to tell us how great the podcast is, please come up and see me.

[00:29:23.85] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, no problems there. Peter, it's always great learning with you. Until next time.

[00:29:29.90] PETER DEWITT: Absolutely.