"We are not all the same!" How to Differentiate Supervision

Series 4 Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast

[00:00:00.41] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast with host Peter Dewitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning, not by chance but by design.

[00:00:19.19] TANYA GHANS: Hi, Peter. I love the green.

[00:00:21.72] PETER DEWITT: Hi, Tanya. Tanya, thank you. I was trying to get something green. Green is one of my colors. I was actually trying to wear something that was one of my colors.

[00:00:30.72] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, summer is ending but not on your shirt, which I love.

[00:00:34.23] [LAUGHTER]

[00:00:35.77] PETER DEWITT: That's good. I've never thought about it that way. I'm going to have to step up my game. I'm going to have to step up my game now for every one of these so--

[00:00:46.06] TANYA GHANS: Oh, no pressure. But yeah, I love it. So here we are at season 4 of Leaders Coaching Leaders. It's such a thrill, as always, to be back with you. And we have some really, really great-- like almost what I call elbow grease guests on. Like people who get on the ground and do the work and are very practical and live the reality, and I think that's going to be really great for listeners of this episode. So do you want to tell everybody more about you?

[00:01:15.99] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, so Kim Morrison and Ann Mausbach are both educators, principal, district office, still working within schools, and they have this book, Differentiating Supervision, Growing Teachers and Getting RESULTS.

[00:01:35.40] And like people will hear when they listen to the interview, I really wanted to understand supervision because you know it's funny, and because we both have a public school background, and we both have leadership background, and also we're both in publishing.

[00:01:53.55] And sometimes there are words that can almost like be a lightning rod word, and supervision is one of those. That's such a tricky ground between can you really collaborate at the same time you're supervising? And that's like a question you get quite often.

[00:02:10.44] And that's why when people listen, they'll understand that I asked for a common language and a common understanding. And I think Kim and Ann did a really good job of offering us a common language and common understanding around what supervision means, and what they want it to look like within schools.

[00:02:28.68] TANYA GHANS: Yeah. I mean, I think you touch on something important about this balancing act between supervision and support. And one of the things that you get into in this session that I think people would appreciate in terms of how that can be done, I think part of it is credibility that really can lie at the heart of those things.

[00:02:46.66] And so yeah, I mean, hopefully, leaders will hear a sentence about how to make both of those things not be in competition with one another. And in talking about our backgrounds, I think a lot of leaders know that heavy handed or inconsistent supervision is not the way they get.

[00:03:05.93] That they want to work alongside and collaborate. But my gosh, when you get on the ground and you've got 20 or 30 teachers and a ton of goals, figuring out how to map that out and do it in an efficient way is I mean, I think daunting is an understatement.

[00:03:20.99] PETER DEWITT: Yeah.

[00:03:21.87] TANYA GHANS: So kudos to having two practitioners who do this well. Take all of that information and lay it out in a way that as a leader, you can start to actually plan for this work and do it in a way that just, I think, breeds success in the school community. So I think that's fantastic.

[00:03:40.61] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. So I'm excited for people to listen to this episode.

[00:03:44.10] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.

[00:03:44.57] PETER DEWITT: So I hope they enjoy.

[00:03:46.07] TANYA GHANS: Happy listening.

[00:03:47.11] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:03:50.86] PETER DEWITT: So Ann Mausbach and Kim Morrison, welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast.

[00:03:57.72] ANN MAUSBACH: Thank you. We're so excited to be here.

[00:03:59.58] KIM MORRISON: Yes.

[00:04:00.09] ANN MAUSBACH: Sincere pleasure.

[00:04:01.26] KIM MORRISON: Thank you such an honor.

[00:04:02.58] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, it was good to spend time with you both at the Visible Learning Conference in Denver. That was awesome. We spent a lot of quality time together.

[00:04:10.71] ANN MAUSBACH: Yeah.

[00:04:11.07] PETER DEWITT: And congratulations on the new book. It's Differentiating Supervision, Growing Teachers and Getting Results. So congratulations on that. Talk to us a little bit about where the book came from? Why did you decide to write it?

[00:04:28.32] ANN MAUSBACH: You're going to go first?

[00:04:28.79] KIM MORRISON: Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I would just say that we are fierce readers of amazing work from lots of practitioners. [INAUDIBLE] and--

[00:04:42.56] ANN MAUSBACH: Hargraves.

[00:04:43.16] KIM MORRISON: --and Hargreaves and Vivian Robinson and of course, John Hattie. And when we really think about our work, we wanted to make a practical guidebook for principals and other administrators to implement.

[00:05:01.25] ANN MAUSBACH: Yeah, and I think what happened is we have worked together for a very long time. She's been a principal, and I was her supervisor at central office. And in that role as a central office leader, I got to see a lot of different principals and a lot of different things that worked and didn't work. And what happened in Kim's school it was always working. And we've been talking a lot about what was the difference maker?

[00:05:25.13] And one of the things that we realized up front, both of us, is that the way we believe in and approach supervision is much different than the traditional approach. And we saw it as kind of a thread that is embedded throughout the school instead of a process that's just kind of a I have to get done, check the box for administrators.

[00:05:43.73] We see it really as that fabric because we both have really-- because of our reading belief and the system leadership and the processes and school improvement. And we see that supervision is a place that can if we look at it with a different lens, that can really help teachers help-- help principals help teachers so that teachers can help kids.

[00:06:09.51] And that's the work. And we know that that's really hard, especially if we approach it in a really fragmented way. So over the years, the two of us have tweaked that in different ways. And what we tried to do within the book was present a coherent model to make it happen because we know it's hard.

[00:06:29.94] And we understand that the day-to-day life in a school, everything's coming at you. So we hope what we've done is put together a practical model that helps principals and leaders think maybe a little bit different about supervision.

[00:06:44.88] PETER DEWITT: So let's go back a little bit to that because I really love what you just said actually. I always felt as a school principal that the whole idea of evaluation and observation and all those were interconnected, but you're right. There are a lot of people that just don't see it that way. They see I have to do observations. I've got this, that. And I know many times it might be that they're busy.

[00:07:06.69] One of the things that Tanya and I are trying to do in the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast is always develop a common language and a common understanding. And one of the words that you use right in your title is a word that's often misunderstood and that's supervision.

[00:07:20.94] So is it possible for you to give the audience that we have the common language of supervision. And it's probably a word that some of the people that are listening are like, oh, my gosh. I can't. I hate that word. And other people are like, OK, I'm not afraid of that word. Can you both give a common definition so we have an understanding of where you're coming from when you mean supervision?

[00:07:44.55] ANN MAUSBACH: You go ahead.

[00:07:45.72] KIM MORRISON: Well, I mean, as an administrator, we have the luxury of wearing many different hats, the coach, the evaluator. Supervision is like a happy medium where we can take focus work for us and build a culture of learning where the teacher and/or other staff member, teacher, leaders, et cetera, really are a partner, a collaborator, a co-conspirator to benefit students make that year great for a child.

[00:08:21.42] So supervision is like supervising, working together but not judging. Like growing. So that we benefit children every single day.

[00:08:36.10] ANN MAUSBACH: Yeah, I think growth is a big piece of it. The other way I'd say too is we like to talk about the distinction between supervision and evaluation. And we see evaluation is that event that happens at the end with the summative. And so many people they're handed down this process from the district, and they treat it like an event.

[00:08:52.44] I got to do these three things, and then I'm going to do it. And what we like to say is supervision is a process that-- I keep using that threaded, it's embedded throughout. And we like to think of it sometimes. And it's not like you don't evaluate your teachers. You do. It's part of your job. But evaluation is like at the end of the race, where did you finish?

[00:09:13.20] We like to think of supervision as you're the one along the sidelines telling them, you're at the 30-minute marker. You're the one holding up the sign. OK, you need more water. And you're helping them along the way so that when they come to the end of the year, that they know it.

[00:09:31.11] So we really like to, I guess, expand that definition of supervision to be more broad, and we see it as the big connector to school improvement and making sure that the whole school, that every teacher, every child gets the benefit of a great teacher. We talk about that a lot.

[00:09:48.96] But yeah, so to just differentiate between those two words. Because we see it as such a everyday occurrence.

[00:09:56.19] KIM MORRISON: Yeah.

[00:09:56.70] ANN MAUSBACH: Yeah

[00:09:57.32] KIM MORRISON: And finally, I would just say that you're breaking down silos like you had alluded to when you first introduced that question. Like we tend to see things finite and event driven, and this model takes that away.

[00:10:12.87] PETER DEWITT: I think one of the reasons why I think your book is so important is what we know to be true is that there is a teacher shortage. And Michael Fallen and Joanna Rosetta just wrote a fantastic guest blog for me.

[00:10:27.33] KIM MORRISON: Yeah.

[00:10:27.63] ANN MAUSBACH: Oh, my gosh, it was great.

[00:10:29.22] PETER DEWITT: And they talked-- we decided to name that teacher shortage, who's abandoning whom?

[00:10:36.93] ANN MAUSBACH: I love that term.

[00:10:38.67] PETER DEWITT: When I think of your book, I think it's-- I don't want to say it's more than just the idea of creating collaboration within a school. I think it's also a pretty important because of the reason that we know that there's a teacher shortage, and many times teachers are leaving the profession not just because-- not necessarily because they don't like the profession, we know that's not the truth. Many times they're leaving their principal, right?

[00:11:07.11] They may have been working in a really bad situation. So why is it so important that we get supervision right? And maybe I just alluded to it a little bit there, but how do you explain in your book what are some key takeaways that people who are listening can say, OK, so that's what they mean by getting supervision right? To look beyond this is just another book that's coming out on leadership. You actually have some really detailed reasons or detailed strategies on how to get supervision right.

[00:11:37.64] So let me backtrack on that a little bit. Number one, why is this so important? And number two, what are the strategies you suggest within your book that are the ways to get it right?

[00:11:47.18] ANN MAUSBACH: Yeah. OK, so I'll try to answer both. I know we're both dying to answer this one. But I think why it's so important is because-- and sometimes again, as leaders we silo like it's either/or I'm going to work on culture, I'm going to work on achievement.

[00:11:59.90] And we believe it's always and, and, and. It's not either/or. And there's all this research out by Gallup that I've been looking at. And someone else talked about how millennials what they want is support. They want to feel supported, and they want feedback. And yet we're so reluctant to do that. So we need to do it because, first of all, it's what people want and Daniel Pink has some good research on that too.

[00:12:26.80] And for a system leader, for a principal, it's going to-- when you go after this, you're not-- you're going to go after both things because simultaneously, the result is going to be you're going to see stronger achievement, but you're also going to see a more vibrant culture where people are happier to be there because everything is more transparent.

[00:12:43.63] So that's the relevance. You're right. People are leaving but so are principals. And they're all because it can feel too overwhelming.

[00:12:50.68] KIM MORRISON: Yeah

[00:12:51.04] ANN MAUSBACH: And because they haven't connected it. So I think that's part of it. And the second part of the question was oh, the key takeaways. You want to take that?

[00:12:57.04] KIM MORRISON: Yeah, so we know that clarity makes a difference. We know that quality leadership, quality teachers make a difference. And I believe, as we believe both, that success is the best stress reliever. So when we celebrate success and we build on that using some of those key strategies that we have in place, so clarity, look for us, they are coconstructed and everybody knows. To use an analogy, we pull back the curtain on-- the wizard's curtain so you see how the workings are.

[00:13:32.65] There's no surprises. It's like with supervision. We're not gotcha, we're with you. We're growing together for the benefit of children. It's a very student-centered model with feedback at its core. So another strategy is to have relevant, authentic, feedback. Why do you have that?

[00:13:49.78] Because you're learning alongside your teachers. Because you're present during professional development and PLCs. You're giving feedback during that learning, and then you're using that learning that they are a part of in the feedback that you see when you get out into these focused walkthroughs, what we call. So you've got this individual teacher component, and then above it, you're looking at the whole building, how is it working out? So implementation studies and a very viable school improvement plan.

[00:14:19.06] ANN MAUSBACH: We're helping them look at it in a way that you've got to move the building, and then you've got to move the teacher. And that's really hard. So we've put the quadrants together to help them figure out, OK, so I need to do all of those things. So what kind of processes do I do to make that happen?

[00:14:35.57] And the difference I think not only do we put feedback in the center but a heavy emphasis on that quantitative feedback that's real descriptive that helps reinforce and refine and reflect. I mean, we talk about that all the time. Because it's not about a checklist, and oh, my gosh, walkthroughs are great, but they've gotten bastardized, and I hope I get bleeped for that, but because they don't really give meaningful feedback. And why we don't get why it's so hard to get meaningful feedback is because we aren't focused enough. We're trying to do 16 things. We want you to engage your students. We want you to differentiate. OK, so what does that mean in this school?

[00:15:14.69] KIM MORRISON: So what does that look like? What's that sound like?

[00:15:16.57] ANN MAUSBACH: Yeah, and that's why the look for us are really part of it. Can it help you drive your feedback?

[00:15:21.43] KIM MORRISON: Right.

[00:15:21.64] ANN MAUSBACH: And then you're giving them real descriptive feedback and talking about it all the time. So everybody knows this is what we're going after. It isn't a mystery, that clarity like Kim said.

[00:15:30.97] KIM MORRISON: Yeah.

[00:15:31.24] ANN MAUSBACH: So I think that's-- yes, if you want to use a checklist, there's a time and a place for that. We don't think it's said very frequently. We think you do that every in an implementation study, but you're going to be on the other half of the left-hand side of the quadrants.

[00:15:45.97] You're going to be giving qualitative feedback to the whole school and through PLCs and individual teachers. And it can be done if you-- that's other thing. I think when we start to talk about this, it seems like, oh, but I think we've given we hope some really practical ways to organize your staff into cycles and make it happen because we've seen it happen.

[00:16:05.62] KIM MORRISON: Yeah.

[00:16:06.52] PETER DEWITT: Well, I think you're both pointing out something I want to call out or highlight something that you're just saying too when you were talking about the common understanding of look for us. You will go into schools, and you know this, you both are heavily experienced. You'll go in and it is a gotcha. Some teachers listening would say, no, it is a gotcha. I have no idea what they're looking for when they're coming in.

[00:16:29.05] So the idea of developing that common understanding of the look for us is really important. Like I'm a big fan of when I'm running workshop or coaching, I develop success criteria with the audience. Because I realized, oh, my gosh, so many people don't even know why they're coming to see me because they were bound and told they had to.

[00:16:46.84] So I think what you're talking about is really, really important because that clarity-- and then I want to connect it to you a couple of things that are actually very serious because Adweek just put out a research study about anxiety and depression. We know that NASSP and LPI have talked about it from a principal standpoint. We know teachers have been looked at.

[00:17:07.99] And one of the things that I was watching before we actually came on to do this interview, I was watching a Ted Talk by Johann [? Hari ?] about anxiety and depression. And he was saying one of the key factors about anxiety and depression, you are more likely to suffer from anxiety and depression if you work in a place where you don't feel like you have a voice.

[00:17:27.89] So that's why I think also what you're talking about is really important. And it's not just being overly dramatic. It's actually being very serious. We know that teachers are feeling heavily anxious and depressed. And we know that principals are feeling the same way.

[00:17:43.10] When you talk about that common understanding of a look for and developing that together, that does have a direct impact on what we know from Ken [INAUDIBLE] work, motivation and agency and understanding that I can be innovative because I'm going to be supported.

[00:17:57.47] Those things are all really interconnected, and that's why I think your conversation around and what you offer in the book around supervision is really important because of those kind of things that we know they were going through and also tied to the teacher shortage and everything else that's happening. If we don't get supervision right, we're kind of screwed, and we know that.

[00:18:23.09] I guess my question to you is so if I'm a teacher and I'm listening to this podcast, one of the things that I'm worried about because along with clarity is the idea of credibility, leadership credibility, how is your book actually helping-- because there are teachers that are going to listen, and we've all worked for principals too, and I'm not picking on principals.

[00:18:45.68] I'm just-- we've worked for principals that don't always understand how to get this correct, and they might not have credibility in the eyes of the teachers that they're trying to do this work with. So how does your book actually also help school leaders develop credibility at the same time they're helping teachers grow?

[00:19:09.11] ANN MAUSBACH: Well, I would say we have moves basically in every chapter. But I think the biggest thing is we would say is learn alongside them. Like there might be times-- and this has happened. We could give you examples-- when you are in this team meeting and you can't figure out why the second graders can't get counting over 100, and you're like, I don't know either.

[00:19:30.39] KIM MORRISON: Let's figure it out.

[00:19:31.37] ANN MAUSBACH: And so let's work together. Maybe I'll come in and I'll watch a little bit longer and do a focus walkthrough, and then we'll come back together. Or let's bring in an article, or let's-- I mean, I think we have to as leaders be OK with not knowing. And that's one of the things we say like, be OK with that. And if you're lucky enough to have instructional coaches, they're so great. You can bring them in.

[00:19:55.82] You can say, you know what? Guys, I don't know this one. So let's think about that. We would both say though, if you aren't as a leader a student of instruction, then this is going to be pretty hard. Because you've got to-- now, you don't know how to teach foreign language, but you have to understand--

[00:20:11.51] KIM MORRISON: Instruction.

[00:20:12.26] KIM MORRISON: --yeah.

[00:20:12.59] ANN MAUSBACH: And so we're pretty--

[00:20:14.70] KIM MORRISON: Yeah. We always talk about implementation and impact, which is implementation we're looking more at that qualitative ways of doing what we do and what does that look like? And that includes the learning. But I am 100% a student along the side of a teacher.

[00:20:33.74] But a teacher is a content expert. There doing it every day. And I think an intended consequence that we have developed out of this is trust. And teachers are more likely to be less stressed, less depressed, more willing to come to a leader who's benevolent, which is a facet of trust, and competent because I'm studying and I'm growing along, and consistent, which this model provides absolute tools to manage that 60% to 70% of the time that we know makes a difference in achievement in a school.

[00:21:15.32] 60% of the time that a principal should be in instructional leadership that allows you to have that credibility with the teacher. And absenteeism, not as big when you have a culture of learning. When the teacher knows that they are part and they are an architect and they have agency into how this does, it builds a sense of urgency in the most positive way. So we can't do it alone teachers. we've got to do it together.

[00:21:48.89] ANN MAUSBACH: Yeah, and the other thing that we try to do in the book is we're really practitioners. I mean, like I said, we haven't-- we used to-- I guess it's now called fangirl. We used to call ourselves professional groupies. But I've fallen especially in [INAUDIBLE]

[00:22:00.02] PETER DEWITT: Yeah.

[00:22:01.15] KIM MORRISON: Do it.

[00:22:02.00] ANN MAUSBACH: They undo it. We were almost like-- [INAUDIBLE]

[00:22:03.35] PETER DEWITT: You don't have to say that.

[00:22:04.24] KIM MORRISON: --like us

[00:22:05.07] PETER DEWITT: Don't say that.

[00:22:06.59] KIM MORRISON: We are like-- but you're-- we feel like you're like us too.

[00:22:09.65] ANN MAUSBACH: But then how do you operationalize it? And so one of the things we try to do, you'll see in the book we have-- all right, so you've got all this information. I think that's the other thing that's so hard. I used to laugh. I didn't think it worked today. I just did all this work, but we want you to begin to-- that nuanced leader like Flynn says, to see the patterns and the trends and what are you seeing?

[00:22:29.90] And become with diagnostic principle. We want our teachers to be diagnostic. As a leader, we've got to do the same thing. So I've gathered all this information. I've been in all these classrooms. And we try to give you a tool to capture that in a simple spreadsheet, and then we ask you to reflect. OK, so what did you see? Not only to help the one teacher, but what do you see across the way?

[00:22:49.25] Which of your goals are being met? Which aren't? So what does that tell you about [INAUDIBLE] bringing your leadership team, and you don't have to solve that yourself. Bring in your coaches and say, OK, now, look this is what it says. So what do we do?

[00:23:00.56] And collaboration around you get a great seat as a principal, a very different seat than anybody else. So but open that and share it and say, this is what I'm seeing. So guys, where are you stuck? What is it that's getting in your way of trying to use success criterion in a way that really helps kids? So--

[00:23:19.52] KIM MORRISON: Yeah.

[00:23:19.82] ANN MAUSBACH: --but that's where they look for us and that connectedness of treating it as a system.

[00:23:24.08] KIM MORRISON: Yeah. It's the coherence, right? The nature of the work. And you want to share in that.

[00:23:29.87] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, and speaking of that, the whole idea of coherence and also Michael [INAUDIBLE] is, I would be I want to make sure that I kind of highlight this too. You were both talking about Ann, you were at the district level, and Kim you were at the building level, I think the one thing we do have to be able to talk about here as well is for those building principals. Listening to say, hey, I'd love to be able to do this work, but I don't get that kind of support from the district office.

[00:23:55.52] And it's pretty clear from talking to the two of you, that's a connection you both had when you were working together. So I want to make sure that I say that this whole idea of the Differentiated Supervision is not just a building level book, I think it's something important that district office administrators need to be able to look at because they need to give their building leaders space to actually engage in this work.

[00:24:19.81] Because if they don't-- if those building leaders don't feel like they're getting support or they don't have the space to be able to engage in this work, then it's not going to get done in the way-- into the depth that it actually could. So I guess as we wrap up, what do you want district leaders to know when you're looking at differentiated supervision, and especially since you have that background as well?

[00:24:41.89] ANN MAUSBACH: Yeah. I want them to know that they're the most important job. I mean, I see it as such a-- their most important job is to help support and develop principals. The principals job is to help and support teachers and the teacher's is to support kids. It's such connected.

[00:24:55.40] And if you treat it as anything but that where you're coming down with so many-- I get it. The district has a focus. I mean, I was pretty focused when I was in those roles. But your job then is to give them the framework and the tools and the support to do it.

[00:25:10.03] And to let them come to you and say, I don't know why my third grade class-- or I don't know why I can't get sixth grade language arts up. Can you help me? Can you help me peel back the curtain and look at this data in maybe a way I haven't? I mean, that's the kind of support.

[00:25:27.08] And so you have to put yourself-- I mean, you almost need to be doing what you want them to do with their teachers. And you've got-- I mean, you've got to work alongside them. So when you come to do a walkthrough, it's not to inspect, it's to say, oh, yeah, I saw the same thing you saw. Well, maybe-- I mean, it's like they're told it's got to be done in much more of a collaborative spirit.

[00:25:49.42] KIM MORRISON: Yeah.

[00:25:50.17] ANN MAUSBACH: And of course, we also know you've got to supervise and evaluate. But you've got to really shift your thinking into I'm working on it, and we-- that was the beauty.

[00:26:00.79] KIM MORRISON: Model of the work.

[00:26:01.48] ANN MAUSBACH: Yeah. Model of the--

[00:26:02.80] KIM MORRISON: This-- Ann and I talk about concept and process a lot. Content and process a lot. And for a district office, for a central office leader, this is a process that can be applied in elementary, in preschool, in high school. This is a process that can be emulated and modeled in themselves as they supervise and support principals.

[00:26:29.35] You could be a superintendent in a small district and utilize this because they're often wearing multiple hats. It's a process, and the practitioners bring in the content, and you learn the content alongside them. So that's I think one big positive takeaway from this book is that it's a process, and we give lots of examples on how you can utilize it with content.

[00:26:59.32] ANN MAUSBACH: Yeah.

[00:27:00.10] KIM MORRISON: But a central office leader needs that. They need processes, and they love processes, right?

[00:27:04.93] PETER DEWITT: Yeah.

[00:27:05.26] KIM MORRISON: They live for that, and it just makes the work smooth and successful.

[00:27:12.90] PETER DEWITT: Well, I want to thank Ann Mausbach and Kim Morrison. The book is Differentiated Supervision, Growing Teachers and Getting Results. I want to say besides congratulations on the book, I think it's the why, the what, and the how. But I think for people that are listening that are not experiencing this right now, it also maybe is a way to give them hope that this kind of work is happening in other schools and maybe this is the kind of work that they can do in their school. So thank you for being a part of the Leaders Teaching Leaders podcast.

[00:27:44.49] ANN MAUSBACH: Thank you so much.

[00:27:45.36] KIM MORRISON: Thank you so much.

[00:27:46.02] ANN MAUSBACH: It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:27:46.95] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:27:51.44] PETER DEWITT: So Tanya, I have to admit, when they were talking, I honestly was watching a Ted Talk about a half an hour before we were going to record the show with Johan [? Hari, ?] I think I'm saying it correctly. And he was talking about anxiety and depression. It was just such an interesting thing to talk about.

[00:28:10.26] And as soon as he said, if people work somewhere where they don't feel like they have a voice and they're told what to do all the time, they're going to be more likely to have anxiety and depression. And it just clicked with me with Ken [INAUDIBLE] work on motivation and agency, [INAUDIBLE] work from 1972, when kids feel alienated because they don't have a voice in their learning or they don't have an emotional connection to their school.

[00:28:38.12] And I thought it was important that-- and I'm glad we got into it Ann and Kim to be able to talk about why this whole idea of getting supervision correct is not supposed to be heavy handed. It's the reason why we need to get into supervision, many of the ways they were talking about is because we are in a crisis within our schools as far as how we're talking with one another, and how we're working with one another, and how we support one another.

[00:29:03.03] So it was great to just-- I'm glad we were able to talk about that. I do also want to say that I'm glad that I was able to talk about district office at the end because I was a little worried building principals would think I was picking on them. And I wasn't. I'm a [INAUDIBLE] building principal. So I was not picking on them at all. It was building principals are-- those are the people that I work with so often.

[00:29:23.81] And so that credibility piece talking about how they work together with teachers, but also how they're given the space by their district office to engage in this work was important too.

[00:29:34.76] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, I mean, I love the theme of interconnectedness because while again, it's one of those things that you know but you have to be vigilant about keeping it top of mind. And so as you bring up anxiety and the stress that people are feeling, usually, when that shows itself, it's the it's the later stage symptoms.

[00:29:53.48] And part of what you want to do is think about what's underpinning that and how do we begin to make moves on a daily basis that prevent it from even getting there. And that has to do with the way that we're interacting as colleagues on the ground and how we're working with our people.

[00:30:10.86] So exactly that if there's trust and respect and collaboration going on around supervision and growing, then you hopefully don't get to the place where the stress and the anxiety is really manifesting for all the adults in the building. So they're all part of one big puzzle, and we have to keep them all connected for the picture to really reveal itself and be full.

[00:30:37.37] PETER DEWITT: Well, I got to tell you. I love the podcast. I love interviewing and having these conversations with people because I stink at parties because nobody wants to talk about school leadership at parties. And I'll be standing alone in a corner.

[00:30:51.29] TANYA GHANS: And I know that's true. You are the guy who's talking about this all the time, yeah. So--

[00:30:56.81] PETER DEWITT: It's good to be able to talk about it with people that care.

[00:30:59.51] TANYA GHANS: You have to create the world that works for you sometimes. And so--

[00:31:03.14] PETER DEWITT: That's right.

[00:31:03.77] TANYA GHANS: --through people, get a podcast, and talk about the things that you love. And what a boon that it helps other people too, which is exactly what's going on the show.

[00:31:12.71] PETER DEWITT: Well, Tanya, it's always good to see you.

[00:31:14.49] TANYA GHANS: Always great to see you, Peter, until next time.

[00:31:17.18] PETER DEWITT: Absolutely.

[00:31:17.78] [AUDIO LOGO]